Friday, October 28, 2011

Is your Bible misleading you?

A lot of Catholics were trap on this problem. Such mentality put by some ill-minded sells men; "All Bibles are the same!" Quite true; if we speak of the 27 New Testament collections, but even that some religious organization you might call "organized churches of America" might have put some twisted words, just to fit with their ill minded faith.

If you are mesmerized by one marketable passage of the Bible, you must take a little closer look. For example is
the all knowing John 3:16 where it says

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in
him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 3:16
New International Version

Reading the passage above gave someone's impression that it is really what is important! We only BELIEVE and we shall have eternal life!!!! We are all go to heaven! It sounds like a freebies: buy one get one free!

People are so energize when they hear it. Just believe in our Lord Jesus Christ and whoa-la .... you are SAVED!!!!!

I hope that is just easy. In reality that is not the case, in truth such an assurance is false. Judas Iscariot is one example. Judas, believe in Jesus, he even walked with Jesus, but in the end failed.

Do all version of the Bible the sam
e? Let us compare the same passage to a Roman Catholic Bible. This time I will used the New American Bible.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life." John 3:16

Did you spot the difference?
Did the meaning change?

If Yes, then what does it mean? Is this is just a Catholic version?


Let us look at the New Revised Standard Version. This version of the Bible was used not only by Catholics but also a handful of Protestants, plus a number of Eastern Orthodox Churches.

"‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16


Now, the verse above did not gave a direct assurance! The New International Version, who was so loved by almost all Evangelical Born-Again Christian, was a rendition for their own tongue.

So, next time you see that passage whether it would be as a car bump sticker, or printed in a shirt...or even in billboards! At least you have a proof to yourself that those people lie on you first hand, by twitching every word of the Bible.

Should they be guilty on this?



Thursday, September 22, 2011

Silence of the Heart

How would a typical person pray? How would you feel if you are the person listening to a prayer of someone close to you?

Did you started saying 'Thank you'? or just start out asking a request or a plea from a problem? What is God for you?

In the Silence of the our hearts real prayer or should I say real voices of our spirit comes out. Moving in our inner peace that actually makes our pace much visible in our mind to utter those words that should be in our lips. In Silence God listens, in our own silence God sees our heart.

I remember after praying the rosary, a moment of silence engulf my mind. It is like sucking the dread out of you, into a light of hope. Even in the great distance, I am sure my prayer was heard. A intense feeling of happiness and contentment in life followed.

Though in midst of suffering; and in the middle of survival in family life, in silence it offered a place, a desert like scene in which your heart would dried up. It dries anguish, it empties hopelessness, and it awaits a new rain drops that would fill in your soul.

So how do you pray?

Friday, August 19, 2011

How To Argue the Existence of Purgatory by Jason Evert

1. What good are prayers for the dead? If a person is in heaven, he doesn’t need prayers, and if he is damned, then no amount of prayers will help him.

Catholics and Protestants can agree on two things regarding the afterlife: Souls in hell will not grow close to God, and those in heaven cannot draw any nearer to him. If purgatory does not exist, prayers for the dead are useless. But if a state of purification exists for some after death, and if prayers can help others in their process of sanctification in this life (Job 1:5: 1 Thess. 5:23), it seems reasonable that prayers would be beneficial to those who are being sanctified after this life. This narrows down the essential question: Does purgatory exist?

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after ones death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God's favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.

Paul mentions this in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15: "Each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work, which any man has built on the foundation, survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Paul's thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner's fire and fuller's soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. Fuller's soap removed stains from clothing. A refiners fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God's love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.

2. The only reason the Catholic Church invented this unbiblical idea of purgatory is to make money off the faithful who think that they can save their unrepentant deceased relatives by paying for Masses.

Does the Church amass wealth off of the doctrine of purgatory? The average Mass stipend (which is optional) is around five dollars. Say a parish had two daily Masses offered for the dead, it would amount to 70 dollars a week. Considering that the five-dollar stipend typically goes to pay for the church's electricity, maintenance, furnishings, salaries, Mass wine and bread, etc., it is apparent how silly this objection about "wealth" is.

Can Masses said after a person's death save his soul? No. Purgatory is only for those who have repented and have died in God's grace but still have some attachment to sin. While the Church cannot judge souls, we can be certain that if a person dies in a state of mortal sin without asking God's forgiveness, purgatory does not await him as if it were a second chance.

3. Weren't prayers for the dead an invention of the medieval Church?

Prayers for the dead are not only older than the Middle Ages, they predate Christianity. In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee and his companions pray for the souls of departed soldiers: "It was a holy and pious thought. Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:45). While Protestants do not accept this as an inspired book, it is worthwhile to point out that even today Jews have a prayer called the Mourner's Kaddish that is offered for the purification of the deceased.

This practice of praying for the dead is also recorded throughout ancient Christian documents, such as the Acts of Paul and Thecla, and in the writings of Perpetua, Tertullian, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius of Salamis, John Chrysostom, and Augustine. Since all of these men wrote between A.D. 160 and 421, prayers for the souls in purgatory can hardly be considered a medieval invention. On the contrary, refusing to pray for the dead is a novel idea in light of historic Judaism and Christianity.

4. The idea of souls needing prayers in purgatory seems so contrary to the gospel that no Bible-believing Christian could believe it.

Actually, since roughly 50 percent of all Christians are Catholics and 25 percent are Orthodox, about three-quarters of all Christians believe it. Certain Protestants, such as C.S. Lewis, have also held to the truth of the doctrine. In his Letters to Malcom, he said, "Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

"I believe in purgatory… Our souls demand purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'with submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleansed first.' 'It may hurt, you know'—'Even so, sir.'"

5. But purgatory implies that Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn't finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory?

This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ's work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work.

To address the second objection first, purgatory is not a place for those bad Catholics who didn't finish working their way to heaven while on earth. "For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God's grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.

Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man's sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life.

This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: "Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross… 'My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Heb. 12:1-12).

Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ's sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something "lacking in Christ's afflictions," and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).

6. I can accept that suffering happens to each believer, but Christ paid all punishments for sin. If purgatory is a punishment, then it means Christ left some part of the debt unpaid.

Some Christians maintain that all temporal punishments for sin are taken away if the person has repented. But the Bible indicates that although God takes away the eternal punishment, some temporal punishments may remain.

In the Old Testament, God forgave David, but still took the life of his son (2 Sam. 12:13-14). In the New Testament, Christ reiterates this principle, "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:25-26). It can also be mentioned that women still experience the temporal punishment of birthpangs (Gen. 3:16), although Christ paid the infinite debt of man's original sin (Rom. 5:12—21).

The sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice is not lessened by the fact that God's work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment. While "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Heb 12:11), it is all a part of God’s promise made through Paul, "that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6), even if it should be "as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).

© This Rock, Catholic Answers, P.O. Box 17490, San Diego, CA 92177, (619) 541-1131.

This item 3302 digitally provided courtesy of CatholicCulture.org

Wednesday, August 10, 2011

Online Debate

DEBATE: Faith and Works in Justification

John Martignoni v Joe Mizzi

Debate

The debate begins with John giving evidence that Joe misrepresents the
Catholic teaching on justification and works; whereas Joe starts by answering
John’s question on salvation. This is followed by rebuttals and final
conclusions. A maximum of 600 words are allowed for each person per
round. The debate is published on both John’s and Joe’s websites. We hope
to finish the debate in about 3 weeks.

Participants

Bio of John Martignoni

Born Catholic. Saved by Baptism (1 Ptr 3:20-21) as an infant. Teaches
Catholic and non-Catholic alike, using the Bible, that the Catholic Faith is the
faith of the Bible; the faith of the Apostles; the faith of the early Christians.
Prays that we all may be one (John 17:20-21).

Website: Bible Christian Society
www.biblechristiansociety.com

Bio of Joe Mizzi

A former Roman Catholic; lives in Malta of Acts 28:1; a paediatrician.
Converted to Christ when he was convinced that salvation is by grace through
faith, not of works. Desires to share the gospel of grace with all people,
especially with Catholics whom he knows and loves dearly.

Website: Just for Catholics
www.justforcatholics.org


SOURCE: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/page/FaithAndWorksInJustification



Round One - Martignoni

Round 1

To show that Dr. Mizzi has misrepresented Catholic teaching on salvation, I wish to start by quoting his website:

“So then, what is required for a person to be justified at the end [according to Catholic teaching], that is, to be accounted to have fully satisfied divine law, and therefore to merit eternal life? Trent answers: THEIR GOOD WORKS!”

I have read through the Council of Trent’s “Decree on Justification,” and nowhere do I find it saying what Dr. Mizzi claims it says. So, first I would ask him to give me the exact quotes that he uses to come to the conclusion he has stated on his website. Where does the Council of Trent say that men are accounted as having fully satisfied divine law by “THEIR GOOD WORKS!”?

Next, I will give the actual words of the Council of Trent regarding justification (as found in: “The Sources of Catholic Dogma,” by Denzinger):

“...so unless [men] were born again in Christ, they never would be justified, since in that new birth through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just, is bestowed upon them.” (Denzinger, p. 249)

“...man himself receiving that inspiration [of the Holy Spirit] does nothing at all inasmuch as he can indeed reject it, nor on the other hand can he, of his own free will, without the grace of God, move himself to justice before Him.” (Denzinger, p. 250)

“...the meritorious cause [of man’s justification] is His most beloved only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who…merited justification for us by His most holy passion on the wood of the Cross, and made satisfaction for us to God the Father…” (Denzinger, p. 251)

“...no one can be just but he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated…” (Denzinger, p. 251)

“...we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because ‘faith is the beginning of human salvation,’ the foundation and root of all justification, ‘without which it is impossible to please God’ [Heb 11:6] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and are, therefore, said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace itself of justification; for, ‘if it is a grace, it is not now by reason of works…’” (Denzinger, p. 252)

“Canon 1: If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by his own natural powers, or through the teaching of the Law, and without divine grace through Christ Jesus: let him be anathema.” (Denzinger, p.258)

Again, Dr. Mizzi has misrepresented the Catholic Faith by giving visitors to his website the impression that the Church teaches that our works, in and of themselves, “merit eternal life.” That our works, in and of themselves, “fully satisfy divine law.” Yet, I have shown that the Council of Trent, which he claimed as the source for his misrepresentations, clearly teaches that we can do nothing pleasing to God in and of ourselves. That without the merits of Jesus’ death on the cross, we are lost.

Dr. Mizzi’s position on justification is actually very close to the Catholic position on justification. The difference is that he believes we cannot “merit” anything. But, instead of focusing on that aspect of our differences on his website, he has instead distorted the whole of Catholic teaching in this area by claiming Trent teaches we are saved by our good works…period! The quotes above show that he is indeed distorting Catholic teaching.


Round One - Mizzi

Round 1

Is whether or not we have faith, God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation?

John, your question is designed to re-word my belief in ‘salvation by faith alone’, and you expect me to answer ‘yes’. I cannot! Your question reflects a serious misunderstanding of the Protestant doctrine of ‘faith alone’. You confuse the biblical doctrine of justification by faith with the eternal foe of the gospel – antinomianism. There are heretics (not least in evangelical circles) who say: ‘I believe in Jesus for salvation; I will go to heaven whether or not I do good works.’ Sadly they are deceived with a false gospel. It does not take some gross sin to keep someone out of heaven—it is enough to do nothing. Christ calls such a person ‘wicked and lazy’. The last words he will ever hear from the mouth of Christ are horrible: ‘Cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’ (Matthew 25:14-30).

What then do we mean by ‘faith alone’? Simply this: ‘to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness’ (Romans 4:5). God justifies him who ‘believes’ and ‘does not work’! That is what ‘alone’ implies. The sinner relies by faith in Christ for justification and not on account of his works. I turn to God and say, ‘Lord God, I am not worthy of salvation. I am a guilty; I deserve wrath and hell. Please do not judge me according to my sins. Have mercy on me. I have no confidence in myself; I do not present my merits. By faith I rely on Jesus Christ your Son. Cover me with his righteousness, cleanse me with his blood.’ ‘Faith alone’ is a complete and exclusive dependence on the Lord Jesus Christ for justification.

What is the place for good works in the Christian experience? Christians are eager to do good works because God has already declared us just. He freed us from sin; we now have the liberty to live for God who loved us so much!

In Ephesians 2:8-10, the Bible teaches that we are not saved because of our good deeds (‘not of works, lest anyone should boast’). But that is only half the story. The same passage also teaches that we are saved for a very specific purpose, namely, to do good works (‘created in Christ Jesus to do good works’). Works are not the cause, but rather the result (the purpose, the fruit) of salvation. Thus good works must always accompany true faith; if they are absent there is neither living faith nor salvation.

Believers will not stand before God to be decided whether he will be ‘justified’ (declared just) or ‘condemned’ (declared guilty). ‘Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ’ (Romans 5:1). ‘Having been justified’ – God has already declared every believer ‘justified’. We ‘shall not come into judgment’ (John 5:24).

So why should we stand before the judgment seat of Christ at all? Principally to be rewarded for our deeds. On that Day we will not be charged before a criminal court; rather it is our graduation day! ‘Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work’ (Revelation 22:12).

I am motivated by God’s love to do the works that please him that I may become more and more like his Son. I do not perform works to merit justification – for justification is God’s gratuitous gift, purchased for us with the infinite price of the blood of Jesus, and received by faith alone.


Round Two - Mizzi

Round 2

John you have demonstrated that the Council of Trent ‘clearly teaches that we can do nothing pleasing to God in and of ourselves.’ I fully agree. Catholicism opposes the Pelagian heresy that we can merit eternal life by our natural ability.

Now if I wrote that the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by our works ‘in and of themselves’, or if I taught that ‘Trent teaches we are saved by our good works… period!’, then I would have indeed misrepresented the Catholic position. But I wrote nothing of the sort! Not even did I give the impression that Catholicism teaches salvation by works ‘in and of themselves’, as I will presently show by asking you to read my words in context.

I quote at length from my article to which you referred (emphasis added). Trent’s decree on Justification can be read online (different translation).

In other words, Rome teaches that God helps man to do good works and hence to fully satisfy the Law. Only then is a person qualified to enter heaven. The Council of Trent elaborates this idea in chapter 16:

“For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, – as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, – and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, – we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace…”

To be fair, we should acknowledge that a great emphasis is placed on Jesus Christ and the grace of God. Good works do not originate in man’s natural ability but can only be performed through Jesus Christ. Yet, it is also true that these works do not cease to be the good works of the Christian; personal works give him the right to heaven.

So then, what is required for a person to be justified at the end, that is, to be accounted to have fully satisfied divine law, and therefore to merit eternal life? Trent answers: THEIR GOOD WORKS! Their good works fully satisfy the divine law. Their works merit eternal life.

John, did I really state or imply that Catholicism teaches salvation by works ‘in and of themselves’? Did I not clarify that good works are done by God’s help; that Catholicism emphasizes God’s grace; that the works are performed through Jesus Christ? Did I not specifically refuse the false idea that Catholicism teaches that our works originate in our natural ability?

John, your allegation is false. You have falsely accused me of the very thing that I took pains to refute!

Moreover my assertion on the Catholic teaching on justification (that personal good works satisfy divine law and merit eternal life) is correct; it is deduced from Trent chapter 16 quoted above. For notwithstanding the grace of God and the merits of Jesus Christ, ultimately, your personal works are in a very real sense your own. Canon 32 places a curse on your head if you deny that your good works are not your own good merits.

Lord willing, next week we’ll compare the Catholic doctrine with the evangelical message of justification by faith apart from our merits.


Round Two - Martignoni

Round 2

Well, I would never want to be so impertinent as to tell a man he doesn’t believe what he says he believes. So, if my question to Dr. Mizzi about the criteria for salvation is based on a misunderstanding of what Dr. Mizzi believes in regards to the doctrine of Sola Fide…salvation by faith alone…then I apologize. I give him his belief as he defines it. I challenge him to do the same towards Catholics.

The problem is, though, that while Dr. Mizzi claims his interpretation of “salvation by faith alone” is THE accurate understanding of the doctrine, I deal with many Protestants who would disagree 100% with his assertion regarding the definition of “salvation by faith alone.” These people say that works have no role in salvation whatsoever. And, all of these folks point to the Bible as the sole source of their beliefs and claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

So, I hope Dr. Mizzi will understand the nature of my confusion regarding his belief on the doctrine of Sola Fide. Now, he will undoubtedly claim that all Protestants (or anyone else for that matter) who disagree with him are, of course, wrong. Just as these other Protestants would tell me he is wrong. So, my question is, who do I, as a Catholic, turn to for a definitive ruling on the Protestant doctrine of Sola Fide, when different Protestants tell me different things, and they all point to the Bible as the source for their beliefs?

Dr. Mizzi will not only use the Bible, though, he will also use history – which is a legitimate and logical thing to do. I believe Dr. Mizzi will claim that his understanding of this doctrine of Sola Fide represents the “historical Protestant doctrine on Justification.” But, exactly where does one go to find out the “historical Protestant doctrine on Justification?” And, who exactly is it that decided the “historical Protestant doctrine on Justification?” There aren’t any Protestant councils one can point to for authentic Protestant teaching. No Protestant catechism.

Could we say that the beliefs of Martin Luther and John Calvin represent the “historical Protestant doctrine on Justification?” That would make sense, wouldn’t it? The beliefs on Justification of the two main founders of Protestantism would indeed represent the “historical Protestant doctrine on Justification,” right?

But, that would present a problem to Dr. Mizzi. If the beliefs of Martin Luther and John Calvin can be said to represent the “historical Protestant doctrine on Justification,” then why does he believe in some historical Protestant doctrines, but not others? For example, both Martin Luther and John Calvin believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, yet Dr. Mizzi does not.

So, if the beliefs of Martin Luther and John Calvin can be said to represent historical Protestant doctrine, then Dr. Mizzi is, in a sense, talking out of both sides of his mouth. He believes historical Protestant doctrine in one area (because it fits with his beliefs), but he doesn’t believe historical Protestant doctrine in another area (because it doesn’t fit with his beliefs).

So, Dr. Mizzi, please tell us how you know what historical Protestant doctrine is? Is it the teaching of Luther and Calvin? If it is, then why don’t you believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, like they did? If it’s not, then what is it?

Now, to close, at the end of Dr. Mizzi’s comments he stated: “I do not perform works to merit justification – for justification is God’s gratuitous gift…” As I pointed out in my first round comments, the Council of Trent states that very thing. Dr. Mizzi is perilously close to Catholic teaching.


Round Three - Martignoni

Round 3

I disagree strongly when Joe says that his website does not even give the “impression” that Catholicism teaches salvation by works “in and of themselves.” I got that impression, as have others.

One gets that impression because he states that we believe our “personal works” give us the “right” to Heaven. That is not even a wrong impression, that is a flat out MISREPRESENTATION. Where does the Council of Trent teach that? It doesn’t. So, Joe, please remove that FALSE STATEMENT from your site.

One also gets that impression when he states: “So then, what is required for a person to be justified at the end…Trent answers: THEIR GOOD WORKS.” Why don’t you instead say: “Trent answers: JESUSDEATH ON THE CROSS (Decree on Justification – chapter 7), FAITH (chapter 8), BEING BORN AGAIN (chapter 3), AND GOOD WORKS (chapter 10)?” Why do you just say “GOOD WORKSALONE and LEAVE OUT all the rest? You’re not trying to create an impression of Catholic teaching as a “works alone” salvation? Then include the full answer from Trent.

We believe almost the same thing about faith and works with the following exception: Catholics believe good works do indeed merit an INCREASE in justification, AFTER we are justified; whereas, you do not. Why not focus on that? Why state it the way you have if your intent is not to mislead?

We can merit an increase in justification, because after we are justified gratuitously by God, we are then members of the Body of Christ. Before justification, we cannot merit anything. But, after justification, we can merit an increase. Does Christ merit? Of course He does. If the Head merits, does not the body also merit? Of course it does. It would be foolish to say that the Head merits but the hand or the foot does not.

2 Cor 3:18, “And we all…are being changed from one degree of glory to another…” So, we can increase in justification…in glory. But, do we merit anything in this increase in glory?

Heb 13:16, “Do not neglect to do good…for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.” How can our sacrifices be “pleasing to God,” if we don’t merit anything? Shouldn’t it say that Jesus’ sacrifice is the only sacrifice pleasing to God?

Heb 13:20-21, “Now may the God of peace…equip you with everything good that YOU may do His will, working in YOU that which is pleasing in His sight…” We can merit because it is Christ working through us. Christ is crowning His own merits manifested in us.

Heb 10:35, “Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.”
Matt 5:11-12, “Blessed are you when men revile you…Rejoice and be glad for your reward is great in heaven.”
1 Cor 3:14, “If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.”

There are many other passages that speak of a reward for what we do. How can we receive a reward for our works, if our works do not merit anything? A reward is something given in return for something we do.

Matt 25:14-30…the two good servants increase what their Master has given them, and they merit a reward for it. The bad servant does not, and he is cast into the outer darkness.

As members of the Body of Christ, we can merit and do merit increases in grace, after our justification…just as the Church and the Bible teach. By producing good fruit (John 15:1-6) we, the branches, abide in Christ and merit, by Christ the vine working through us, increases in grace. Very biblical. Very Catholic.


Round Three - Mizzi

Round 3

John I accept your apology. Your misunderstanding of sola fide gives me great hope. You are not opposing the biblical gospel but the antinomian pseudo-gospel. In this fight, I am on your side. Moreover, I am hopeful that one day you will understand and receive the evangelical message for your salvation.

Your rebuttal deviates from our subject, Justification, to the field of epistemology. Important as that is, we must keep to our topic. I will not attempt to give a full answer; suffice it to say that the historic Protestant doctrine is recorded in the historical confessions (Thirty-nine Articles; Belgic, Augsburg, 1689 Baptist, Westminster, etc). Protestants do not agree on everything (do you?), but it is gloriously true that God granted us perfect agreement on the doctrine of justification by faith alone, as the Protestant confessions testify.

Back to our subject. I must emphasize that sola fide is not:

Faith = Justification minus Works

That’s antinomianism, making works unnecessary or optional in the Christian experience. Heretical!

Sola fide includes works as a necessary aspect of God’s salvivic purpose. Sola fide is:

Faith = Justification plus Works

We believe that a person is justified by faith alone, apart from the merits of personal works, on account of the righteousness and blood of Jesus. We come to God empty-handed, without merits, and appeal for mercy and grace, asking God to give us what we do not deserve. By faith we rely on Jesus Christ alone for our justification, being convinced that his sacrifice on the cross is sufficient to cleanse us from all sin.

Now God’s purpose is not only our liberation from guilt and condemnation; he also determined that his people should be zealous for good works. The same faith that justifies, uniting us to Christ, also results in a godly and holy life. Good works follow justification – as one historic Protestant confession states: good works ‘do spring out necessarily of a true and lively faith insomuch that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit.’

Yet we do not dream on relying on those works for our justification. For justification we believe in Christ – in Christ alone!

How does this compare with the Catholic doctrine? Catholicism also has works as a necessary factor in the formula, but there is a fundamental difference. Catholicism teaches:

Faith plus Works = Justification

Faith is important; Catholicism does not teach justification by works alone. Yet faith is insufficient to secure a right standing before God according to Catholic teaching. The merits of personal works performed throughout the Catholic’s life, must be added so that at the end he will be accounted to have fully satisfied the divine law and merited eternal life. I hope you can appreciate the difference between the Catholic and evangelical message.

Good works, like a kiss, could be the sign of opposite things. Good works are the Christian’s kiss of love and gratitude to the Saviour. But good works could also be a Judas kiss betraying the grace of Christ. For pretending to believe in Jesus, many religious people will not completely trust in him for justification, but work and toil to merit what God gives freely for Christ’s sake alone.

John I appeal to you, and to the readers of this debate, to examine your deepest motives. Do I trust completely in Jesus Christ alone for my justification? Is there concrete evidence in my life, good works, that my faith is real? And finally, am I doing works out of love for Christ, or for the purpose of meriting justification?





I have an Evangelical friend at work who claims that the Catholic belief in Purgatory is not scriptural. What should I say to him?

SOURCE:

2 Sam 12:13-18, “David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.’ And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick…On the seventh day the child died.” Catholic Scriptural Principle #1 – there is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.

Rev 21:27, “But nothing unclean shall enter it…” The New Jerusalem – Heaven. Catholic Scriptural Principle #2 – nothing unclean, nothing with the stain of sin, will enter Heaven.

Mt 5:48, “You, therefore, must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” That’s because of Principle #2 – nothing unclean will get into Heaven.

Heb 12:22-23, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living god, the heavenly Jerusalem...and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect…” The spirits of just men, made perfect. Catholic Scriptural Principle #3 – there is a way, a process, through which the spirits of the “just” are “made perfect.”

1 Cor 3:13-15, “…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day [judgment day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” Where is this place that a man, after he dies, suffers loss, as through fire, but is still saved. Hell? No, once you’re in Hell, you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss in Heaven.

Mt 12:32, “And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Implies forgiveness in the age to come. Where can you go to be forgiven in the age to come? Heaven? You don’t need forgiveness. Hell? There is no forgiveness. Catholic Scriptural Principle #4 – there is a place, or state of being, other than Heaven or Hell.

Now, let’s summarize these four scriptural principles: There is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness. We have to be perfect as the Father is perfect, because nothing unclean will enter Heaven. There is some way, or process, by which the spirits of the just are made perfect. There is a place besides Heaven or Hell where you can suffer loss, yet be saved, but only as through fire; and where you can be forgiven of sins from a previous age. It all adds up to one inevitable conclusion - the Catholic teaching on Purgatory is indeed scriptural.

Sunday, August 7, 2011

Question to All Protestants....

Source: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=166


1) Where in the Bible does it say that we should go by the Bible alone when it comes to all matters pertaining to faith and morals? Scripture verse?

2) Where in the Bible does it list the books which should be part of the Bible? Scripture verse?

3) Where in the Bible does it say that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Scripture verse?

4) Do you believe the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes or no?

5) If yes, where in the Bible does it say that the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?

6) Do you believe the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit?

7) If yes, where in the Bible does it tell us that the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?

8) Where in the Bible does it tell us who the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was? Scripture verse?

9) Is keeping someone from profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord an act of charity? Yes or no?

10) By using musical instruments in your worship services, even though you know folks in the Churches of Christ believe that musical instruments should not be used in worship services, are you being “exclusive” in your worship service? Yes or no?

11) Do you interpret the Bible? Yes or no?

12) If the answer to #11 is yes, is your interpretation infallible? Yes or no?

13) If the answer to #12 is no, then will you admit that your interpretations of the Bible could be wrong in one or more places? Yes or no?

14) If the answer to #11 is yes, then does anyone have the authority to tell you, Matt Johnson, that your interpretations of the Bible are wrong? Yes or no?

15) If the answer to #14 is yes, then who? Just one name please.

16) Do you believe that participating at the Lord’s Table in an “unworthy manner” and “profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord” would cause grave peril to someone...either physically or spiritually? Yes or no?

17) If the answer to #16 is yes, then shouldn’t pastors continually warn their congregations about participating unworthily at the Lord’s Table? Yes or no?

18) Do you believe that profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord is a serious sin? Yes or no?

19) Can those who do not have God’s approval be saved? Yes or no?

20) Did the Apostles teach different doctrines to different people? Yes or no?

21) Did the Apostles and other leaders of the early Church believe it was okay to have false doctrines within the Church? Yes or no?

22) Did the Apostles break fellowship with those who were teaching different doctrines than they were teaching? Yes or no?

23) Did Jesus and the Apostles demand conformity to the doctrines they taught? Yes or no?

24) Were the Apostles infallible in their teaching on faith and morals? Yes or no?

25) Can you be “one” with someone who believes in false doctrines? Yes or no?

26) In your church, can two walk together if they are not in agreement? Yes or no?

27) Did Jesus give his real flesh or his symbolic flesh for the life of the world? Real or symbolic?

28) Did Jesus say that the bread he would give us to eat, which, if we ate we would live for ever, was the flesh that He would give for the life of the world? Yes or no?

29) Did Jesus say that we had to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life? Yes or no?

30) Did Jesus say that His flesh was food indeed and that His blood was drink indeed? Yes or no?

31) Do you believe the Body of Christ, the church, with Jesus as its head, can teach error in the areas of faith and morals? Yes or no?

32) If all scholars disagree as to what constitutes exegesis and eisegesis, then do you know with 100% certainty what constitutes exegesis and eisegesis? Yes or no?

33) Can God appear to you under any form He chooses? Yes or no?

34) Is the correlation I am drawing between the flesh that Jesus shall give for the life of the world and the bread that Jesus shall give us to eat, found in John 6:51? Yes or no?

35) Do we need to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life? Yes or no?

36) If the answer to #35 is yes, then can we say that His flesh does indeed profit us? Yes or no?

37) If the answer to #36 is yes, then does verse 62 of John 6 mean that it counts as nothing to eat Jesus’ flesh and to drink His blood? Yes or no?

38) Does Jesus’ flesh “count for nothing?” Yes or no?

39) Are you an authentic interpreter of Scripture? Yes or no?

40) If #39 is yes, is your interpretation of Scripture infallible? Yes or no?

41) Am I an authentic interpreter of Scripture? Yes or no?

42) If you are not an authentic interpreter of Scripture, then who is?

Tuesday, July 26, 2011

THE ABSURDITY OF THE IGLESIA NI MANALO REASONING Part 1

Anonymous said...
Christ is not the one true God because he clearly said that the Father is the only true God.

Moreover, it is also clearly stated in Bible that JesusChrist is the mediator between God and men.

So Christ is not the one true God because the one who mediates and the one to whom he mediates could not be referring to only one entity? They must be different? Are they not?

If Christ is also God, it will follow that you have two Gods and not just one true God! It is just a simple addition: 1 + 1 = 2. It is ABSURD to think that 1 + 1 = 1

Fr. Abe, CRS said...
[Christ is not the one true God because he clearly said that the Father is the only true God.]

THE FATHER CALLED JESUS 'GOD' CATEGORICALLY AND EXPLICITLY:

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

YOUR POSITION MAKES GOD THE FATHER A LIAR.

[Moreover, it is also clearly stated in Bible that JesusChrist is the mediator between God and men.]

JESUS IS MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN BECAUSE JESUS IS THE GOD WHO BECAME MAN:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known. [Good News Bible]

THE BIBLE SAYS THAT JESUS IS GOD AND THE BIBLE SAYS THAT JESUS IS MAN BECAUSE JESUS IS THE GOD WHO BECAME MAN.THE BIBLE NEVER SAID THAT "JESUS IS NOT GOD". WHERE? CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.

THE BIBLE SAYS THAT JESUS IS THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN BUT NO STATEMENT THAT JESUS IS 'MAN ONLY'. WHERE? CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.

[So Christ is not the one true God because the one who mediates and the one to whom he mediates could not be referring to only one entity? They must be different? Are they not?]

CHRIST IS THE ONE TRUE GOD BECAUSE HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE:

John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

THE MEDIATOR AND THE ONE TO WHOM HE IS MEDIATING COULD BE THE SAME PERSON. IF A SUPER RICH MAN WILL GO TO HIS WORKERS INCOGNITO LIKE A SIMPLE EMPLOYEES THEN HE CAN MEDIATE BETWEEN THE EMPLOYEES AND THE OWNER DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE IS THE SAME BEING.

[If Christ is also God, it will follow that you have two Gods and not just one true God!]

IF THE BIBLE AND JESUS ARE NOT LIARS IN SAYING THAT JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE THEN THERE ARE NO TWO GODS BUT ONE. YOU ARE THE ONE LYING NOT JESUS AND THE BIBLE. SORRY FOR YOU.

[It is just a simple addition: 1 + 1 = 2. It is ABSURD to think that 1 + 1 = 1]

YOUR MISTAKE IS NOT ABOUT ABSURDITY BUT ABOUT STUPIDITY. GOD IS THE SUPREME BEING, THE HIGHEST AND GREATEST BEING. THEREFORE YOU SHOULD USE THE HIGHEST MODE OF MATHEMATICS FOR HIM.

THERE ARE 4 MODES BY ORDER OR DEGREE OF IMPORTANCE:

4. SUBSTRACTION
3. DIVISION
2. ADDITION
1. MULTIPLICATION

THE HIGHEST IS NOT 'ADDITION' BUT 'MULTIPLICATION'. SO, IT MUST BE THE ONE TO BE USED FOR GOD. SO THEN,

1 X 1 = ONE (1)

I REPREAT. YOUR MISTAKE IS NOT ON ABSURDITY BUT ON STUPIDITY.


ANO ANG BASEHAN NG MGA SAKSI NI BAHO NA SI CRISTO DAW AY HINDI IPINAKO KUNDI IBINITIN SA PUNONG KAHOY?

Source: http://thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/2011/07/ano-ang-basehan-ng-mga-saksi-ni-baho-na.html

Anonymous said...
Konting-konti pa lang background ko dito sa doktrina ng mga Saksi. Kapag may nagbabahay-bahay ay hindi ko nga pinapansin.

Ang pagkakaalam ko lang ay 'yun ngang pangalan ng Diyos daw ay "Jehovah", tapos, sa tulos daw ipinako si Jesus sabi ng Saksi ni Jehovah na nakausap ko minsan sa mall (medyo may katagalan na rin).

Ano po ang basehan nila ng tungkol sa "tulos"? Gusto ko na ring simulan ngayon ang pag-aaral ng kanilang mga doktrina.

Dapat na nga ring pagtuunan ng pansin ang mga pangangaral nila. Mahilig kasi silang magbahay-bahay. Hindi naman sila ini-invite pero pinipilit nila ang sarili nilang maging panauhin. Ang pangit pa, baka kapag hindi mo iniintindi eh, may mga pangit na sasabihin ('baka' lang naman po pero sino ba ang makapagsasabi). Huwag naman po sana kung sakali dahil unang-una nga, hindi naman kayo in-invite para maging aming panauhin.

Sa mga Saksi na andito sa blog ni Father, ano po ang masasabi ninyo tungkol dito sa mga sinasabi ng mga Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses?

Heto po ang link:
http://www.watchthetower.com/
[WATCH the TOWER: Official website of Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses] - don't forget the article 'the' in between watch and tower.

Fr. Abe, CRS said...
[Ano po ang basehan nila ng tungkol sa "tulos"? Gusto ko na ring simulan ngayon ang pag-aaral ng kanilang mga doktrina.]

ITO BROD:

Act 5:30 Ibinangon ng Dios ng ating mga magulang si Jesus, na siya ninyong pinatay, na ibinitin sa isang punong kahoy.

PARA SA KANILA ANG PANGINOON DAW AY IBINITIN HINDI IPINAKO. HA HA HA... ANG KATANGAHAN NILA E HINDI NILA INISIP NA ANG PANGINOON AY TINAWAG NA IBINITIN DAHIL ANG MGA PAA AY NAKAANGAT SA LUPA. SUBALIT VERY CLEAR NA IPINAKO SIYA AT HINDI BINITAY. DAHIL NAKAANGAT SA LUPA ANG PANGINOON, NAKABITIN IYON SUBALIT HINDI NAKABITAY KUNDI NAKAPAKO.

HINDI MAN LANG TINIGNAN NG MGA HUNGHANG NA SAKSI NI BAHO NA EARLIER THAN THAT E SINABI NA SA ACTS OF THE APOSTLES NA IPINAKO SI CRISTO SA KRUS:

Act 2:23 Siya, na ibinigay sa takdang pasiya at paunang kaalaman ng Dios, kayo sa pamamagitan ng mga kamay ng mga tampalasan ay inyong ipinako sa krus at pinatay...

Act 2:36 Pakatalastasin nga ng buong angkan ni Israel, na ginawa ng Dios na Panginoon at Cristo itong si Jesus na inyong ipinako sa krus.

Act 4:10 Talastasin ninyong lahat, at ng buong bayan ng Israel, na sa pangalan ni Jesucristo ng taga Nazaret, na inyong ipinako sa krus, na binuhay ng Dios na maguli sa mga patay, dahil sa kaniya ay nakatindig ang taong ito sa inyong harap na walang sakit.

ITO PA ANG NAPAKARAMING SALAYSAY HINGGIL SA PAGKAPAKO NI CRISTO AT HINDI 'BITIN' ANG MALINAW NA DINIDIIN NG BIBLIA:

Matthew 28:5 At sumagot ang anghel at sinabi sa mga babae, Huwag kayong mangatakot; sapagka't nalalaman ko na inyong hinahanap si Jesus na ipinako sa krus.

Mark 15:24 At siya'y kanilang ipinako sa krus, at kanilang pinaghatihatian ang kaniyang mga damit, na kanilang pinagsapalaran, kung alin ang dadalhin ng bawa't isa.

Mark 15:25 At ikatlo na ang oras, at siya'y kanilang ipinako sa krus.

Mark 15:27 At ipinako sa krus na kasama niya ang dalawang tulisan; isa sa kaniyang kanan, at isa sa kaniyang kaliwa.

Mark 16:6 At sinabi niya sa kanila, Huwag kayong mangagitla: hinahanap ninyo si Jesus, ang Nazareno, na ipinako sa krus: siya'y nagbangon; wala siya rito: tingnan ninyo ang dakong pinaglagyan nila sa kaniya!

Luke 23:33 At nang dumating sa dakong tinatawag na Bungo, ay kanilang ipinako roon siya sa krus, at ang mga tampalasan, isa sa kanan at isa sa kaliwa.

John 19:18 Na doo'y ipinako nila siya sa krus, at kasama niya ang dalawa pa, isa sa bawa't tagiliran, at si Jesus sa gitna.

1 Corinto 2:8 Na hindi napagkilala ng sinomang pinuno sa sanglibutang ito: sapagka't kung nakilala sana nila, ay dising di ipinako sa krus ang Panginoon ng kaluwalhatian...

AYAN, SOBRANG DAMI NG PROWEBA NA TAMA TAYO.

MGA UTAK GALUNGGONG ANG MGA SAKSI NI BAHO NA IYAN. NAKAKITA LANG NG ISANG SALITA NA IBINITIN E NAGDUNONG DUNUNGAN NA. HA HA HA...

NGAYON, BAKIT NAMAN PUNONG KAHOY ANG SINABI?

SAGOT:

1. KASI POSIBLENG ANG KRUS AY YARI SA KAHOY NG PUNONG PINUTOL.

2. MAAARING ITO AY HINDI LAMANG LITERAL STATEMENT BUT FIGURATIVE DAHIL SI EVA AT SI ADAN AY TINUKSO NG DEMONIO SA PUNONG KAHOY KAYA ANG MANUNUBOS AY TINUBOS DIN ANG SANLIBUTAN SA PAMAMAGITAN NG PUNONG KAHOY.

ANG TREE OF KNOWLEDGE AY KAAKIT-AKIT... DECEPTIVE AND TEMPTING. ANG KRUS NI CRISTO AY PAINFUL, TERRIFYING AND BEREFT OF BEAUTY BUT IT GAVE LIFE TO ALL THROUGH THE SACRIFICE OF THE REDEEMER.

TINIGNAN LAMANG NG MUKANG UNGGOY NA SI CHARLES TAZE RUSSEL ANG LITERAL SENSE NG TALATA HINDI ANG SPIRITUAL SENSE NIYON.

Monday, July 25, 2011

Singles for Christ: 'Too Sad' SFC does not know the truth

When it comes with charisma, Singles for Christ took it all. But when it comes of Church teachings; Singles for Christ lose its grounds.

I do remember posting this question over S.F.C. facebook account. " What is the foundation of Pillar of truth? The Bible or the Church?"

Too sad; even one of the chapter head choose the Bible, only few chose the Church. One household head even said "It's like egg and chicken thing..."

Wake up Couples for Christ!!!! See heresy is now leaping over S.F.C.!

Household heads only knew how to pray in tongues, or even too long prayers standing like the Pharisees in Jesus time. I feel bad, especially me and my wife took the other way, as a former member, once you got married you are now expected to join the later part; the Couples for Christ.

But with this incident I am thinking twice. I do hope that my fellow Catholic Charismatic groups would hold on to the Traditions handed over from the Apostles.

The problem is Chapter heads became too resourceful...they kept copying Evangelical Christians in all sides. They mused Christian unity, but fail to know their own faith.


Sunday Bible Reflections with Dr. Scott Hahn

July 31st, 2011 - 18th Sunday in Ordinary Time


Food in Due Season

Readings:
Isaiah 55:1-3
Psalm 145:8-9, 15-18
Romans 8:35,37-39
Matthew 14:13-21


In Jesus and the Church, Isaiah’s promises in today’s First Reading are fulfilled. All who are thirsty come to the living waters of baptism (see John 4:14). The hungry delight in rich fare - given bread to eat and wine to drink at the Eucharistic table.

This is the point, too, of today’s Gospel. The story of Jesus’ feeding of the 5,000 brims with allusions to the Old Testament. Jesus is portrayed as a David-like shepherd who leads His flock to lie down on green grass as He spreads the table of the Messiah’s banquet before them (see Psalm 23).

Jesus is shown as a new Moses, who likewise feeds vast crowds in a deserted place. Finally, Jesus is shown doing what the prophet Elisha did - satisfying the hunger of the crowd with a few loaves and having some left over (see 2 Kings 4:42-44).

Matthew also wants us to see the feeding of the 5,000 as a sign of the Eucharist. Notice that Jesus performs the same actions in the same sequence as at the Last Supper - He takes bread, says a blessing, breaks it, and gives it (see Matthew 26:26).

Jesus instructed His apostles to celebrate the Eucharist in memory of Him. And the ministry of the Twelve is subtly stressed in today’s account. Before He performs the miracle, Jesus instructs the Twelve to give the crowd “some food yourselves.” Indeed, the apostles themselves distribute the bread blessed by Jesus (see Matthew 15:36).

And the leftovers are enough to fill precisely 12 baskets - corresponding to each of the apostles, the pillars of the Church (see Galatians 2:9; Revelation 21:14).

In the Church, as we sing in today’s Psalm, God gives us food in due season, opens His hands and satisfies the desires of every living thing. Now, as Paul reminds us in today’s Epistle, nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.




Yours in Christ,



Scott Hahn, Ph.D.

P.S. Do you want your friends, family, and co-workers to know the treasures of the Catholic faith through the treasure of God’s Word? Then join me in praying for the work of the St. Paul Center and please make your most generous financial contribution today. You can donate now by credit card by visiting our secure, convenient website at www.salvationhistory.com

Chat Debate on Mary

Here a Protestant wish to derail Catholic's veneration to Mary. See how the arguments turned comedy when Mr. Duran could go any further...
[from Bishop Tagle's dicussion board: 'The Word Exposed' / face book]

Archie posted:
{{{True, that is why I am a Catholic. I hold on to men whom Jesus gave Authority over his Church. }}}

Psalm 118:8-9 (RSV)
[8] It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to put confidence in man.
[9] It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to put confidence in princes.

Hold on to the Lord. Not on men. Jesus Christ is the Chief Cornerstone (meaning the top stone of a pyramid) of the Church...Ephesians 2: 20 ( Jesus Christ is over the Church -- the Head) ---The apostles and prophets are the foundational and foundation-laying ministries...Ephesians 2:20 (The leaders are under the Church- supporting)

That's why Peter and those who were given the task of spreading the gospel of Christ are only there to support the early followers--- but their message is one given by Jesus Christ. Not their own message. Not their own teachings...but Jesus Christ's. It is not Peter himself who is the foundation of the Church, but his confession of Jesus, the "huge rock". The acknowledgement of Jesus as Christ is the issue (Matthew 16: 20)

------------------------
{{{[That's faith coming from the heart. The thief was compelled to say this because in his heart he believed that Jesus can save him.]

Paul....did your theory was supported by scripture? I don't think so. The Bible does not say anything about it...}}}

Job 33: 3 (RSV)
[3] My words declare the uprightness of my heart,
and what my lips know they speak sincerely.

Psalm 44: 21 (RSV)
[21] would not God discover this?
For he knows the secrets of the heart.

Matthew 12: 34 (RSV)
[34] You brood of vipers! how can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

You see Archie, out of the abundance of the HEART the mouth SPEAKS... The heart of the thief is full of belief in Jesus Christ's Kingdom that's why he uttered "Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom"... He believed in God...Now are the words I post here supported by Scriptures?

{{{Lastly, Paul your theology is so mixed up... very confusing.... sometimes you sounds a little 'faith alone' sometimes 'faith with works'. }}}

You know why it's confusing? Because no self-effort leads to faith or salvation.

We cannot be saved by doing good works. Doing good works is commanded by God BUT not as a means to salvation...

Hebrews 13: 16 (RSV)
[16] Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Psalm 34: 14 (RSV)
[14] Depart from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.

Psalm 37: 3 (RSV)
[3] Trust in the LORD, and do good;
so you will dwell in the land, and enjoy security.

Luke 6: 35 (RSV)
[35] But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish.
-------------
But we are not saved by doing good works. But we are commanded to do good works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (RSV)
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Titus 3: 5-7 (RSV)
[5] he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
[6] which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[7] so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
-----------------

Acts 10: 43 (RSV)
[43] To him all the prophets bear witness that every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

You see, Archie, our sins are forgiven when we believed in the name of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean that the person who believed in Jesus would lock himself in a cabinet and then do nothing...that's not what believing in Jesus meant... when you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior He will compel you to change your ways and to avoid sinning..... you have to trust Him...

James 2: 24
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

A man is JUSTIFIED by works and not by faith alone... because many claim that they believe in Jesus Christ but they continue with their wicked ways... that doesn't make their faith right...

James 2: 26 (RSV)
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

We are compelled to DO good works because of our FAITH.

Now do I still sound like sometimes I'm "Faith Alone" and sometimes I'm "Faith with Works"???

Archie, our own good works will never save us BUT we are commanded to do good, that's why we are to do good deeds. Most people sometimes do good in order to look good in front of others... do you think God does not see our intentions? That is why we must never boast in any thing that we can do because God has ALREADY seen our hearts.
--------------

Now about Mary... I did a little research and this is what I found out....

CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

"Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.
----------
Of course I did not place the other parts because I just want you to look at one specific phrase.......Archie......

Did you notice the title Queen of Heaven? (I'm having goosebumps already...)

Aren't you even scared? The term Queen of Heaven is mentioned in the Bible...


Jeremiah 44: 25-29 (RSV)
[25] Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: You and your wives have declared with your mouths, and have fulfilled it with your hands, saying, `We will surely perform our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and to pour out libations to her.' Then confirm your vows and perform your vows!
[26] Therefore hear the word of the LORD, all you of Judah who dwell in the land of Egypt: Behold, I have sworn by my great name, says the LORD, that my name shall no more be invoked by the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, `As the Lord GOD lives.'
[27] Behold, I am watching over them for evil and not for good; all the men of Judah who are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by famine, until there is an end of them.
[28] And those who escape the sword shall return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all the remnant of Judah, who came to the land of Egypt to live, shall know whose word will stand, mine or theirs.
[29] This shall be the sign to you, says the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, in order that you may know that my words will surely stand against you for evil:
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This is why I'm telling you that your VENERATION TO MARY does not please the Lord...

To the person who asked "why do we believe in Mary" this is the kind of answer you need. Mary should never be given any recognition which will level her with the kind of recognition deserved by God alone... BECAUSE THAT IS IDOLATRY....Roman Catholics become DEPENDENT on Mary instead of being dependent to Jesus Christ....
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Paul...

Saint Peter wrote about you Paul....

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions." 2 Peter 2:1

Again Saint Peter reminds us...
"I am trying to arouse your sincere intention by reminding you that you should remember the WORDS SPOKEN in the past by the holy prophets, and the commandment of the Lord and Savior SPOKEN THROUGH YOUR APOSTLES. " 2 Peter 3:1-2

RE: Ephesians 2: 20

"built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone."

Amen!!!! LOOK FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS WITH JESUS AS OUR CORNERSTONE.... You only made the Catholic more stable on this...

[That's why Peter and those who were given the task of spreading the gospel of Christ are only there to support the early followers--- but their message is one given by Jesus Christ. Not their own message]

Peter was task to spread the Gospel? Quite right but also Jesus gave the keys of heaven...

[It is not Peter himself who is the foundation of the Church, but his confession of Jesus, the "huge rock". The acknowledgement of Jesus as Christ is the issue (Matthew 16: 20) ]

Matt. 16:18-19--- based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

RE: Job 33: 3 (RSV)
[3] My words declare the uprightness of my heart,
and what my lips know they speak sincerely.

Amen!!!! I believe....who said these lines Paul?

Psalm 44: 21 (RSV)
[21] would not God discover this?
For he knows the secrets of the heart.

I believe!!!! So? who comes first? the Good thieve rebuttal to his fellow thieve? or Jesus' promise of paradise? and Paul do not cut the verse read it as a whole...

Question is he was saved through his spoken words such of " remember me when you are in paradise....?" or with justification of his faith through the rebuttal of his fellow thief? which is more decisive to believe? faith with words? or faith with action?

[You know why it's confusing? Because no self-effort leads to faith or salvation.]

True....so why be a Protestant? You need the real thing Paul...You need the Church.


[We cannot be saved by doing good works. Doing good works is commanded by God BUT not as a means to salvation... ]

Really? what we believe as Catholics is " Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation

If you are right then how about these verse say so....

Sir. 35:19;
Luke 23:41;
John 3:19-21,
Rom. 8:13,
2 Tim 4:14,
Titus 3:8,14,
Rev. 22:12 -

these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

[We are compelled to DO good works because of our FAITH.]

Wrong Paul... God did not only instruct good deeds or work not only of faith...but the reason of faith and works...

Saint Peter reminds us: "Instead, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16for it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’ " 1Peter 1:15-16

Paul....your theology is still half or this and some of that....

RE: MARY as QUEEN OF HEAVEN vs Queen of heaven as described in Jeremiah...

Paul...you are always ignorant in scripture. Oh...not just that even Biblical history... You even like to trick Catholics on your words...

See here is a so called Christian who hates and even commits blasphemous against Jesus himself!!!

Paul says: "Mary should never be given any recognition which will level her with the kind of recognition deserved by God alone... BECAUSE THAT IS IDOLATRY"


Now Paul.... the Queen of Heaven described on Jeremiah is not Mary...Did you read "Mary?"

"Astarte/Ashtoreth is the Queen of Heaven to whom the Canaanites had burned incense and poured libations." ----Encyclopedia Britannica

"Ashtoreth ... the ancient Phoenician and Syrian goddess of love and fertility: identified with ASTARTE." --------- Webster's New World College Dictionary


Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom:

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

Hey...Paul nice try...... Remember Biblical History and other books says different....

Study more Paul...



CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

"Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.
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Do you know how to read Archie?

Notice the last part? --- and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

The Roman Catholic church has upgraded Mary to the status of Queen of Heaven....

I believe you have read that part Archie... and still you would post---{{{Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom:}}}

Are you trying to deny that the CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY is not believable?

The title Queen of Heaven is written there.... Are you trying to deny this?

You have exaggerated the role of Mary already... did Jesus tell us that Mary is a queen? I've read that Jesus is the bridegroom and his faithful followers are the bride.... but I haven't read that Mary should be regarded as queen...

The situation during the reign of Solomon is not the kind of system we have in heaven...


{{{Now Paul.... the Queen of Heaven described on Jeremiah is not Mary...Did you read "Mary?" }}}

That's exactly my point...the TITLE Queen of Heaven is NOW given to Mary...

Notice this part in the CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

---Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.---

Didn't you read what's written here? Mary is now Queen of Heaven...

And here's more....read on....
---By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary.---

The Bible tells us on the contrary...

John 14: 6 (RSV)
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, BUT BY ME.

---But by me.... that is by Jesus Christ... through Jesus Christ....and now you're saying that it is THROUGH Mary?????????????

Oh c'mon....

And here's more.... read on...

----To offer all our prayers and oblations to God THROUGH Mary, and to seek every gift from God THROUGH Mary.----

Are you reading this Archie? Aren't you even guilty?


Notice this prayer Archie...

Novena Prayer to Our Lady of the Angels

August Queen of Heaven! Sovereign Queen of the Angels! You who at the beginning received from God the power and the mission to crush the head of Satan, we beseech you humbly, send your holy legions so that, on your orders and by your power, they will track down demons, fight them everywhere, curb their audacity and plunge them into the abyss.

Who can be compared to God? Oh good and tender Mother, you will always be our love and our hope.

Oh Mother of the Divine Son, Send the holy angels and archangels to defend me and to keep the cruel enemy far from me.

Holy Angels and Archangels defend us, protect us.Amen.
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Do you now understand how Mary takes away the credit that is due to Jesus Christ?

Read this line and ask yourself Archie...

--- You who at the beginning received from God the power and the mission to crush the head of Satan----

To crush Satan is the role of Jesus Christ... not Mary's....

(I'll use the NIV Bible because there is a missing verse in the RSV Bible....

Matthew 21:44 (NIV)
Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Mat. 21:44 (NRSV)
The one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.’

this is the first time that i replied on this thread, not because i am not interested but i can not find a reason not to believe in Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

hey protestants! what is your problem with Mary? is it Mary or what you believe the way we pay respect to Mary?

if you ask your pastor to pray for you, then why not Mary, the person nearest to our Lord Jesus Christ.

are you going to say she is not omnipresent? she transcends through time and space because she is in her glorified body unless you believe that Mary is languishing in hell.

on the issue of "queen of heaven" here is what i can contribute:

The Catholic teaching on this subject is expressed in the papal encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam,[1] issued by Pope Pius XII. It states Mary is called the Queen of Heaven because her Son, Jesus Christ, is the King of Israel and heavenly King of the Universe. In the Hebrew tradition, the mother of the king is the queen (see queen mother). Catholic dogma (Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus) states that the Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.[2] The title Queen of Heaven has long been a Catholic tradition, included in prayers and devotional literature, and seen in Western art in the subject of the Coronation of the Virgin, from the High Middle Ages, long before it was given a formal dogmatic definition status by the Church. For centuries, Catholics, while reciting the Litany of Loreto were already invoking Mary as "Queen of Heaven".

note that hebrew tradition "the mother of king is the queen." so if jesus was a king and indeed as catholics we believe he is then following the hebrew tradition, mary becomes a queen or specifically "our queen" as catholics.

paul duran, mary and christ are NOT in contest with each other for our prayers, glory and honor. they belong to the same team. all devotions ot mary and the saints lead to christ. all our prayers end with christ!

remember that whatever honor titles and honor mary has is because of her relationship with her son. as he analogy goes "mary is the moon that gets its light from the sun who is jesus."

hector

Paul,

Before you can put up a comment on Catholic teachings you should know what you are talking.

[Notice the last part? --- and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.]

True, because she is ONLY woman in the Bible who are favored...

[Are you trying to deny that the CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY is not believable?]

Nope, it only strengthen the fact that Mary is the Queen of heaven.... Through the Davinic
Line of Jesus...If Jesus is a King...then her mother should be the Queen....since Jesus does not have any wife...

[The title Queen of Heaven is written there.... Are you trying to deny this?]

Nope. True it is written... BUT there is no sane Biblical historian that could tied the Pagan Queen to the Virgin Mary.


IF YOU INSIST then maybe you should start comparing Jesus and Dionysus...

Jesus -- Born of a virgin
-- Baptism
-- Sacred Meal
-- Death and resurrection
-- Salvation

Dionysus was celebrated in Civic religion and in mysteries. The Mysteries of Dionysus included
initiation by bathing—baptism
a sacred meal
a myth about the death and resurrection the god
salvation..

SEE the Similarity?

I only brought it because you are so ignorant.

[You have exaggerated the role of Mary already... did Jesus tell us that Mary is a queen? I've read that Jesus is the bridegroom and his faithful followers are the bride.... but I haven't read that Mary should be regarded as queen... ]

Did Jesus said she could not be called a Queen since He had a eternal Kingdom?

[The situation during the reign of Solomon is not the kind of system we have in heaven...]

Well, if you read it as it is.... you had already denied evidences.

[That's exactly my point...the TITLE Queen of Heaven is NOW given to Mary...]

Hmmm... so do I have to be worried when we Catholics believe in God head? Where as Egyptians called Osiris as their own God head?

Paul, wake up! Christianity is a minority of all religion in those days! Thanks to the Roman Catholic church who erased pagan gods who resembled Christianity...


RE: CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

[Paul said:"Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.---
Didn't you read what's written here? Mary is now Queen of Heaven...]

Paul...read the next line...

"Mary is not only the Mother of Jesus, Son of the Eternal Father; she is also Mother of all the Father's adopted children. As their Mother, she has been given the role of molding them into the likeness of Jesus..." CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY [http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm]

Do I still have to explain this?

[By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary.---]

If consecration to Mary "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary," as Pope Pius XII pointed out, we must remember that any gradual transformation into Christ requires a gradual loving acceptance of a greater share in His redeeming Cross.

So when we offer ourselves to Mary to lead us, to form us into the likeness of her Son, we are offering to let her lead us along the way of the Cross.
CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY [http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm]

[John 14: 6 (RSV)
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, BUT BY ME. ]

Amen I believe!!!!

[---But by me.... that is by Jesus Christ... through Jesus Christ....and now you're saying that it is THROUGH Mary?????????????]

Yes Paul....through her... I believe I had answer this long ago.... we called it intercessory prayer.

[Are you reading this Archie? Aren't you even guilty?]

No I am not....but how about you? You almost called her insignificant creature of God...

Re: Gen 3:15

Paul...study hermeneutics...and how writers wrote....

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel -----Gen 3:15

He will strike . . . at his heel: since the antecedent for he and his is the collective noun offspring, i.e., all the descendants of the woman, a more exact rendering of the sacred writer's words would be, "They will strike . . . at their heels."

However, later theology saw in this passage more than unending hostility between snakes and men. The serpent was regarded as the devil (Wisdom 2:24; John 8:44; Rev 12:9; 20:2), whose eventual defeat seems implied in the contrast between head and heel. Because "the Son of God appeared that he might destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8), the passage can be understood as the first promise of a Redeemer for fallen mankind. The woman's offspring then is primarily Jesus Christ.


Paul....it is between "Ipsa" and "Ipsum"

e.g. Ipsa, the woman: so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin:
others read it ipsum, viz. the seed.

The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes
the serpent's head.

According to Early Christian History on Scriptures:

"The fathers who have cited the old Italic version, taken from the Septuagint agree with the Vulgate, which is followed by almost all the Latins; and hence we may argue with probability, that the Septuagint and the Hebrew formerly acknowledged ipsa, which now moves the indignation of Protestants so much, as if we intended by it to give any divine honour to the blessed Virgin Mary."


Re:Matthew 21:44 (NIV) / NRSV

I believe! Read the hermeneutics and co relation between Gen 3:15 if they have....

[Do you now understand how Mary takes away the credit that is due to Jesus Christ?]

I had already answer you on this Paul...review my posts...

Paul.... you are the ONLY Protestant who always like theological garbage....

LEARN real Biblical Exegesis....For what I know Ateneo had this subject offered to all laity...
Study more...so that once you posted your answer; you would have little credibility, taking to it self that you are just a tabloid reader.

archie you are good and right.

paul follow th advice of archie to study the catholic doctrine first, you cannot critic something that you have little or knowledge about. please be accurate and fair. please lang.

hector