Chat Debate on Mary

Here a Protestant wish to derail Catholic's veneration to Mary. See how the arguments turned comedy when Mr. Duran could go any further...
[from Bishop Tagle's dicussion board: 'The Word Exposed' / face book]

Paul Cesar Duran

Archie posted:
{{{True, that is why I am a Catholic. I hold on to men whom Jesus gave Authority over his Church. }}}

Psalm 118:8-9 (RSV)
[8] It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to put confidence in man.
[9] It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to put confidence in princes.

Hold on to the Lord. Not on men. Jesus Christ is the Chief Cornerstone (meaning the top stone of a pyramid) of the Church...Ephesians 2: 20 ( Jesus Christ is over the Church -- the Head) ---The apostles and prophets are the foundational and foundation-laying ministries...Ephesians 2:20 (The leaders are under the Church- supporting)

That's why Peter and those who were given the task of spreading the gospel of Christ are only there to support the early followers--- but their message is one given by Jesus Christ. Not their own message. Not their own teachings...but Jesus Christ's. It is not Peter himself who is the foundation of the Church, but his confession of Jesus, the "huge rock". The acknowledgement of Jesus as Christ is the issue (Matthew 16: 20)

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{{{[That's faith coming from the heart. The thief was compelled to say this because in his heart he believed that Jesus can save him.]

Paul....did your theory was supported by scripture? I don't think so. The Bible does not say anything about it...}}}

Job 33: 3 (RSV)
[3] My words declare the uprightness of my heart,
and what my lips know they speak sincerely.

Psalm 44: 21 (RSV)
[21] would not God discover this?
For he knows the secrets of the heart.

Matthew 12: 34 (RSV)
[34] You brood of vipers! how can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

You see Archie, out of the abundance of the HEART the mouth SPEAKS... The heart of the thief is full of belief in Jesus Christ's Kingdom that's why he uttered "Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom"... He believed in God...Now are the words I post here supported by Scriptures?

{{{Lastly, Paul your theology is so mixed up... very confusing.... sometimes you sounds a little 'faith alone' sometimes 'faith with works'. }}}

You know why it's confusing? Because no self-effort leads to faith or salvation.

We cannot be saved by doing good works. Doing good works is commanded by God BUT not as a means to salvation...

Hebrews 13: 16 (RSV)
[16] Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Psalm 34: 14 (RSV)
[14] Depart from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.

Psalm 37: 3 (RSV)
[3] Trust in the LORD, and do good;
so you will dwell in the land, and enjoy security.

Luke 6: 35 (RSV)
[35] But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish.
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But we are not saved by doing good works. But we are commanded to do good works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (RSV)
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Titus 3: 5-7 (RSV)
[5] he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
[6] which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[7] so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
-----------------

Acts 10: 43 (RSV)
[43] To him all the prophets bear witness that every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

You see, Archie, our sins are forgiven when we believed in the name of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean that the person who believed in Jesus would lock himself in a cabinet and then do nothing...that's not what believing in Jesus meant... when you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior He will compel you to change your ways and to avoid sinning..... you have to trust Him...

James 2: 24
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

A man is JUSTIFIED by works and not by faith alone... because many claim that they believe in Jesus Christ but they continue with their wicked ways... that doesn't make their faith right...

James 2: 26 (RSV)
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

We are compelled to DO good works because of our FAITH.

Now do I still sound like sometimes I'm "Faith Alone" and sometimes I'm "Faith with Works"???

Archie, our own good works will never save us BUT we are commanded to do good, that's why we are to do good deeds. Most people sometimes do good in order to look good in front of others... do you think God does not see our intentions? That is why we must never boast in any thing that we can do because God has ALREADY seen our hearts.
--------------

Now about Mary... I did a little research and this is what I found out....

CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

"Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.
----------
Of course I did not place the other parts because I just want you to look at one specific phrase.......Archie......

Did you notice the title Queen of Heaven? (I'm having goosebumps already...)

Aren't you even scared? The term Queen of Heaven is mentioned in the Bible...


Jeremiah 44: 25-29 (RSV)
[25] Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: You and your wives have declared with your mouths, and have fulfilled it with your hands, saying, `We will surely perform our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and to pour out libations to her.' Then confirm your vows and perform your vows!
[26] Therefore hear the word of the LORD, all you of Judah who dwell in the land of Egypt: Behold, I have sworn by my great name, says the LORD, that my name shall no more be invoked by the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, `As the Lord GOD lives.'
[27] Behold, I am watching over them for evil and not for good; all the men of Judah who are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by famine, until there is an end of them.
[28] And those who escape the sword shall return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all the remnant of Judah, who came to the land of Egypt to live, shall know whose word will stand, mine or theirs.
[29] This shall be the sign to you, says the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, in order that you may know that my words will surely stand against you for evil:
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This is why I'm telling you that your VENERATION TO MARY does not please the Lord...

To the person who asked "why do we believe in Mary" this is the kind of answer you need. Mary should never be given any recognition which will level her with the kind of recognition deserved by God alone... BECAUSE THAT IS IDOLATRY....Roman Catholics become DEPENDENT on Mary instead of being dependent to Jesus Christ....
-----------------
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Archie Gene Gallardo

Paul...

Saint Peter wrote about you Paul....

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions." 2 Peter 2:1

Again Saint Peter reminds us...
"I am trying to arouse your sincere intention by reminding you that you should remember the WORDS SPOKEN in the past by the holy prophets, and the commandment of the Lord and Savior SPOKEN THROUGH YOUR APOSTLES. " 2 Peter 3:1-2

RE: Ephesians 2: 20

"built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone."

Amen!!!! LOOK FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS WITH JESUS AS OUR CORNERSTONE.... You only made the Catholic more stable on this...

[That's why Peter and those who were given the task of spreading the gospel of Christ are only there to support the early followers--- but their message is one given by Jesus Christ. Not their own message]

Peter was task to spread the Gospel? Quite right but also Jesus gave the keys of heaven...

[It is not Peter himself who is the foundation of the Church, but his confession of Jesus, the "huge rock". The acknowledgement of Jesus as Christ is the issue (Matthew 16: 20) ]

Matt. 16:18-19--- based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

Archie Gene Gallardo

RE: Job 33: 3 (RSV)
[3] My words declare the uprightness of my heart,
and what my lips know they speak sincerely.

Amen!!!! I believe....who said these lines Paul?

Psalm 44: 21 (RSV)
[21] would not God discover this?
For he knows the secrets of the heart.

I believe!!!! So? who comes first? the Good thieve rebuttal to his fellow thieve? or Jesus' promise of paradise? and Paul do not cut the verse read it as a whole...

Question is he was saved through his spoken words such of " remember me when you are in paradise....?" or with justification of his faith through the rebuttal of his fellow thief? which is more decisive to believe? faith with words? or faith with action?

[You know why it's confusing? Because no self-effort leads to faith or salvation.]

True....so why be a Protestant? You need the real thing Paul...You need the Church.


[We cannot be saved by doing good works. Doing good works is commanded by God BUT not as a means to salvation... ]

Really? what we believe as Catholics is " Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation

If you are right then how about these verse say so....

Sir. 35:19;
Luke 23:41;
John 3:19-21,
Rom. 8:13,
2 Tim 4:14,
Titus 3:8,14,
Rev. 22:12 -

these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

[We are compelled to DO good works because of our FAITH.]

Wrong Paul... God did not only instruct good deeds or work not only of faith...but the reason of faith and works...

Saint Peter reminds us: "Instead, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16for it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’ " 1Peter 1:15-16

Paul....your theology is still half or this and some of that....

Archie Gene Gallardo

RE: MARY as QUEEN OF HEAVEN vs Queen of heaven as described in Jeremiah...

Paul...you are always ignorant in scripture. Oh...not just that even Biblical history... You even like to trick Catholics on your words...

See here is a so called Christian who hates and even commits blasphemous against Jesus himself!!!

Paul says: "Mary should never be given any recognition which will level her with the kind of recognition deserved by God alone... BECAUSE THAT IS IDOLATRY"


Now Paul.... the Queen of Heaven described on Jeremiah is not Mary...Did you read "Mary?"

"Astarte/Ashtoreth is the Queen of Heaven to whom the Canaanites had burned incense and poured libations." ----Encyclopedia Britannica

"Ashtoreth ... the ancient Phoenician and Syrian goddess of love and fertility: identified with ASTARTE." --------- Webster's New World College Dictionary


Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom:

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

Archie Gene Gallardo

Hey...Paul nice try...... Remember Biblical History and other books says different....

Study more Paul...

Paul Cesar Duran

CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

"Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.
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Do you know how to read Archie?

Notice the last part? --- and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

The Roman Catholic church has upgraded Mary to the status of Queen of Heaven....

I believe you have read that part Archie... and still you would post---{{{Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom:}}}

Are you trying to deny that the CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY is not believable?

The title Queen of Heaven is written there.... Are you trying to deny this?

You have exaggerated the role of Mary already... did Jesus tell us that Mary is a queen? I've read that Jesus is the bridegroom and his faithful followers are the bride.... but I haven't read that Mary should be regarded as queen...

The situation during the reign of Solomon is not the kind of system we have in heaven...

Paul Cesar Duran

{{{Now Paul.... the Queen of Heaven described on Jeremiah is not Mary...Did you read "Mary?" }}}

That's exactly my point...the TITLE Queen of Heaven is NOW given to Mary...

Notice this part in the CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

---Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.---

Didn't you read what's written here? Mary is now Queen of Heaven...

And here's more....read on....
---By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary.---

The Bible tells us on the contrary...

John 14: 6 (RSV)
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, BUT BY ME.

---But by me.... that is by Jesus Christ... through Jesus Christ....and now you're saying that it is THROUGH Mary?????????????

Oh c'mon....

And here's more.... read on...

----To offer all our prayers and oblations to God THROUGH Mary, and to seek every gift from God THROUGH Mary.----

Are you reading this Archie? Aren't you even guilty?

Paul Cesar Duran

Notice this prayer Archie...

Novena Prayer to Our Lady of the Angels

August Queen of Heaven! Sovereign Queen of the Angels! You who at the beginning received from God the power and the mission to crush the head of Satan, we beseech you humbly, send your holy legions so that, on your orders and by your power, they will track down demons, fight them everywhere, curb their audacity and plunge them into the abyss.

Who can be compared to God? Oh good and tender Mother, you will always be our love and our hope.

Oh Mother of the Divine Son, Send the holy angels and archangels to defend me and to keep the cruel enemy far from me.

Holy Angels and Archangels defend us, protect us.Amen.
-----------------------

Do you now understand how Mary takes away the credit that is due to Jesus Christ?

Read this line and ask yourself Archie...

--- You who at the beginning received from God the power and the mission to crush the head of Satan----

To crush Satan is the role of Jesus Christ... not Mary's....

(I'll use the NIV Bible because there is a missing verse in the RSV Bible....

Matthew 21:44 (NIV)
Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Mat. 21:44 (NRSV)
The one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.’

Jose Villa

this is the first time that i replied on this thread, not because i am not interested but i can not find a reason not to believe in Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

hey protestants! what is your problem with Mary? is it Mary or what you believe the way we pay respect to Mary?

if you ask your pastor to pray for you, then why not Mary, the person nearest to our Lord Jesus Christ.

are you going to say she is not omnipresent? she transcends through time and space because she is in her glorified body unless you believe that Mary is languishing in hell.

Maria Divinagracia

on the issue of "queen of heaven" here is what i can contribute:

The Catholic teaching on this subject is expressed in the papal encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam,[1] issued by Pope Pius XII. It states Mary is called the Queen of Heaven because her Son, Jesus Christ, is the King of Israel and heavenly King of the Universe. In the Hebrew tradition, the mother of the king is the queen (see queen mother). Catholic dogma (Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus) states that the Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.[2] The title Queen of Heaven has long been a Catholic tradition, included in prayers and devotional literature, and seen in Western art in the subject of the Coronation of the Virgin, from the High Middle Ages, long before it was given a formal dogmatic definition status by the Church. For centuries, Catholics, while reciting the Litany of Loreto were already invoking Mary as "Queen of Heaven".

note that hebrew tradition "the mother of king is the queen." so if jesus was a king and indeed as catholics we believe he is then following the hebrew tradition, mary becomes a queen or specifically "our queen" as catholics.

paul duran, mary and christ are NOT in contest with each other for our prayers, glory and honor. they belong to the same team. all devotions ot mary and the saints lead to christ. all our prayers end with christ!

remember that whatever honor titles and honor mary has is because of her relationship with her son. as he analogy goes "mary is the moon that gets its light from the sun who is jesus."

hector

Archie Gene Gallardo

Paul,

Before you can put up a comment on Catholic teachings you should know what you are talking.

[Notice the last part? --- and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.]

True, because she is ONLY woman in the Bible who are favored...

[Are you trying to deny that the CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY is not believable?]

Nope, it only strengthen the fact that Mary is the Queen of heaven.... Through the Davinic
Line of Jesus...If Jesus is a King...then her mother should be the Queen....since Jesus does not have any wife...

[The title Queen of Heaven is written there.... Are you trying to deny this?]

Nope. True it is written... BUT there is no sane Biblical historian that could tied the Pagan Queen to the Virgin Mary.


IF YOU INSIST then maybe you should start comparing Jesus and Dionysus...

Jesus -- Born of a virgin
-- Baptism
-- Sacred Meal
-- Death and resurrection
-- Salvation

Dionysus was celebrated in Civic religion and in mysteries. The Mysteries of Dionysus included
initiation by bathing—baptism
a sacred meal
a myth about the death and resurrection the god
salvation..

SEE the Similarity?

I only brought it because you are so ignorant.

Archie Gene Gallardo

[You have exaggerated the role of Mary already... did Jesus tell us that Mary is a queen? I've read that Jesus is the bridegroom and his faithful followers are the bride.... but I haven't read that Mary should be regarded as queen... ]

Did Jesus said she could not be called a Queen since He had a eternal Kingdom?

[The situation during the reign of Solomon is not the kind of system we have in heaven...]

Well, if you read it as it is.... you had already denied evidences.

Archie Gene Gallardo

[That's exactly my point...the TITLE Queen of Heaven is NOW given to Mary...]

Hmmm... so do I have to be worried when we Catholics believe in God head? Where as Egyptians called Osiris as their own God head?

Paul, wake up! Christianity is a minority of all religion in those days! Thanks to the Roman Catholic church who erased pagan gods who resembled Christianity...


RE: CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY

[Paul said:"Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.---
Didn't you read what's written here? Mary is now Queen of Heaven...]

Paul...read the next line...

"Mary is not only the Mother of Jesus, Son of the Eternal Father; she is also Mother of all the Father's adopted children. As their Mother, she has been given the role of molding them into the likeness of Jesus..." CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY [http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm]

Do I still have to explain this?

[By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary.---]

If consecration to Mary "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary," as Pope Pius XII pointed out, we must remember that any gradual transformation into Christ requires a gradual loving acceptance of a greater share in His redeeming Cross.

So when we offer ourselves to Mary to lead us, to form us into the likeness of her Son, we are offering to let her lead us along the way of the Cross.
CONSECRATION TO THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY [http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm]

[John 14: 6 (RSV)
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, BUT BY ME. ]

Amen I believe!!!!

[---But by me.... that is by Jesus Christ... through Jesus Christ....and now you're saying that it is THROUGH Mary?????????????]

Yes Paul....through her... I believe I had answer this long ago.... we called it intercessory prayer.

[Are you reading this Archie? Aren't you even guilty?]

No I am not....but how about you? You almost called her insignificant creature of God...

Archie Gene Gallardo

Re: Gen 3:15

Paul...study hermeneutics...and how writers wrote....

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel -----Gen 3:15

He will strike . . . at his heel: since the antecedent for he and his is the collective noun offspring, i.e., all the descendants of the woman, a more exact rendering of the sacred writer's words would be, "They will strike . . . at their heels."

However, later theology saw in this passage more than unending hostility between snakes and men. The serpent was regarded as the devil (Wisdom 2:24; John 8:44; Rev 12:9; 20:2), whose eventual defeat seems implied in the contrast between head and heel. Because "the Son of God appeared that he might destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8), the passage can be understood as the first promise of a Redeemer for fallen mankind. The woman's offspring then is primarily Jesus Christ.


Paul....it is between "Ipsa" and "Ipsum"

e.g. Ipsa, the woman: so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin:
others read it ipsum, viz. the seed.

The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes
the serpent's head.

According to Early Christian History on Scriptures:

"The fathers who have cited the old Italic version, taken from the Septuagint agree with the Vulgate, which is followed by almost all the Latins; and hence we may argue with probability, that the Septuagint and the Hebrew formerly acknowledged ipsa, which now moves the indignation of Protestants so much, as if we intended by it to give any divine honour to the blessed Virgin Mary."


Re:Matthew 21:44 (NIV) / NRSV

I believe! Read the hermeneutics and co relation between Gen 3:15 if they have....

[Do you now understand how Mary takes away the credit that is due to Jesus Christ?]

I had already answer you on this Paul...review my posts...

Archie Gene Gallardo

Paul.... you are the ONLY Protestant who always like theological garbage....

LEARN real Biblical Exegesis....For what I know Ateneo had this subject offered to all laity...
Study more...so that once you posted your answer; you would have little credibility, taking to it self that you are just a tabloid reader.

Maria Divinagracia

archie you are good and right.

paul follow th advice of archie to study the catholic doctrine first, you cannot critic something that you have little or knowledge about. please be accurate and fair. please lang.

hector

Protestant forgot his Bible verse!!!!!

This is an online debate.... I am sharing to raise the awareness of Catholics, that we can stand in our faith firm as a rock.

The topic is all about Mary. Why should we believe to Mary?

Joyce wrote to Bishop Tagle:

hi po bishop,,dati po ako pumasok sa pagmamadre kaso po lumabas po ako,sa tagaytay po ang convent namin,lagi po kita nakikita kapag kayo po ang nagmimisa sa Lourdes church.Ngayon po iyong bestfriend ko dati po siyang catholic ngayon po nagiba na siya ng relihiyon.tanong po niya sakin bakit daw po tayo nagdarasal ng rosaryo samantalang beeds lamang daw po yun,bakit din daw po tayo naniniwala kay maria at nagdarasal sa kanya ei hindi aman daw siya diyos,bakit din daw po tayo may mga rebulto na sinasamba natin ei sa lumang tipan po sabi ng Diyos huwag tayo sasamba sa mga baal..bakit din daw po tayo nangungumpisal sa mga pari,bakit hindi nalang daw po natin edirect kay God ang mga kasalanan natin..sorry po bishop naguguluhan narin po ako sa mga tanong na'to,,ngayon din po nagdedecide po ako if babalik ako sa pagmamadre pero iba pong congregation dito lang po samin malapit lang..salamat po at sorry po dahil marami po ang tanong ko..tawagin niyo nalang po ako na "GIOIA"tanx

Paul Cesar Duran (PROTESTANT)

To Joycie,

Unbelief is actually perverted faith, for it puts its trust, not in the living God but in dying men. The unbeliever denies the selfsufficiency of God and usurps attributes that are not his. This dual sin dishonors God and ultimately destroys the soul of man.

Romans 8:34
New International Version (NIV)
34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Na sa 'yo na po yan Joycie, kung kanino mo gustong ilaan ang iyong dasal... pero when it comes to the salvation of our souls ( being sinners ) only Jesus Christ can intercede for us. And no one else. Read your Bible, please.....

Psalm 118:8-9
New International Version (NIV)
8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in humans.
9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in princes.

Romans 8:27
New International Version (NIV)
27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

Archie Gene Gallardo

[Unbelief is actually perverted faith, for it puts its trust, not in the living God but in dying men. The unbeliever denies the selfsufficiency of God and usurps attributes that are not his. This dual sin dishonors God and ultimately destroys the soul of man.]

I do respect his views well...

Romans 8:34
New International Version (NIV)
34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

As a Catholic I agree....

[Na sa 'yo na po yan Joycie, kung kanino mo gustong ilaan ang iyong dasal... pero when it comes to the salvation of our souls ( being sinners ) only Jesus Christ can intercede for us. And no one else. Read your Bible, please...]

I do agree... but how about these verses?

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

Archie Gene Gallardo

Also these verses?

Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.

Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.

Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.

1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.

2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.

Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.

Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.

Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.

Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.

Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.

Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.

Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.

Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.

Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

Archie Gene Gallardo

The thing is Catholic Faith for some is simple. It's not. For some Bible is sole authority; it's not.

The veneration to Mary is rooted in the Holy Traditions of the Holy Church. Intercessory prayer is rooted in the Bible.

We Catholics believe that Mary intercede for us, she pray for us too!

Archie Gene Gallardo

If there is ONLY one mediator then....in Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?

Did Saint Paul is so ignorant about it? I think not....

In 1 Thess. 5:17 Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?

Archie Gene Gallardo

All credit is to God alone.... Saints could not do anything extra mile....but pray to God's throne....Although Saint's lives could be our model in life. Here starts what we call veneration to the Saints.

1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.

also this one....

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.

Archie Gene Gallardo

About Mary's unique role we Catholics meditate on these verses....I hope you can check this out...

Gen. 3:15
- we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1
- the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.

Now about our Prayers to God, Mary magnify it....

Luke 1:44 -
Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46
- Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48
- Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4
- God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Paul Cesar Duran

Archie said:
{{{Mary's prayer and Saint's prayer are all directed to God. }}}

But look at your people, their faith is directed TO Mary and the Saints... not TO God...

If their faith is directed TO God then they should pray TO God for their salvation.... they should address their prayers TO God... not address their prayers TO Mary and the Saints and then they in turn address the prayers TO God....

You see Archie, the channel to which our prayers go through is very important... because our faith is at stake here...

Our God can handle all our prayers --- if we direct our prayers TO other channels, then we make God to be unworthy of our prayers...

YOU CAN PRAY DIRECTLY TO GOD Archie... that's the reason Jesus came to earth, to renew our friendship with Him....Jesus is God, why not pray directly to Him?

Archie Gene Gallardo

Yes we can direct our prayer to God. But the Bible also teaches us to pray to one another. I see no problem doing the two way.

So why not pray to God with the Saints in heaven?

Paul Cesar Duran

Because the credit is taken away from the Almighty God...Jesus Christ.
We can pray to one another, there's no question with that.....
But for our salvation, we ought to pray ONLY to God....because Jesus Christ is the only one... the only one.... the only one concerned for our salvation...

If you ( let's say ) were in His place... and then you hear people praying a prayer with a phrase "pray for us sinners", and then you hear that the prayer is not addressed to you... how would you feel?

Archie Gene Gallardo

"Pray for us sinners"

I feel that the person whom I asked to pray for me is just seeing God face to face!

In our prayer it is just asking Mary to pray for us NOT "have mercy on us" or "Save us in peril" God still is the Supreme being who could save us....

[But for our salvation, we ought to pray ONLY to God....because Jesus Christ is the only one... the only one.... the only one concerned for our salvation...]

True, God alone could save us.... But how could you explain intercession prayers in the Bible? God never forbids it.

How about this verse?
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29
- the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

Archie Gene Gallardo

As I checked... I have no copy of any prayers to the Saints that the Saints omits glory to God.

So if I asked you to pray for me, is that bad? Am I asking you to do a miracle for me? No. I am just asking you to repeat to God my prayers (that if you are in state of Grace).

NOTE: Paul never mind putting verses anymore.... I will post some more if he answers.