This is an online debate.... I am sharing to raise the awareness of Catholics, that we can stand in our faith firm as a rock.
The topic is all about Mary. Why should we believe to Mary?
Joyce wrote to Bishop Tagle:
hi po bishop,,dati po ako pumasok sa pagmamadre kaso po lumabas po ako,sa tagaytay po ang convent namin,lagi po kita nakikita kapag kayo po ang nagmimisa sa Lourdes church.Ngayon po iyong bestfriend ko dati po siyang catholic ngayon po nagiba na siya ng relihiyon.tanong po niya sakin bakit daw po tayo nagdarasal ng rosaryo samantalang beeds lamang daw po yun,bakit din daw po tayo naniniwala kay maria at nagdarasal sa kanya ei hindi aman daw siya diyos,bakit din daw po tayo may mga rebulto na sinasamba natin ei sa lumang tipan po sabi ng Diyos huwag tayo sasamba sa mga baal..bakit din daw po tayo nangungumpisal sa mga pari,bakit hindi nalang daw po natin edirect kay God ang mga kasalanan natin..sorry po bishop naguguluhan narin po ako sa mga tanong na'to,,ngayon din po nagdedecide po ako if babalik ako sa pagmamadre pero iba pong congregation dito lang po samin malapit lang..salamat po at sorry po dahil marami po ang tanong ko..tawagin niyo nalang po ako na "GIOIA"tanx
To Joycie,
Unbelief is actually perverted faith, for it puts its trust, not in the living God but in dying men. The unbeliever denies the selfsufficiency of God and usurps attributes that are not his. This dual sin dishonors God and ultimately destroys the soul of man.
Romans 8:34
New International Version (NIV)
34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
Na sa 'yo na po yan Joycie, kung kanino mo gustong ilaan ang iyong dasal... pero when it comes to the salvation of our souls ( being sinners ) only Jesus Christ can intercede for us. And no one else. Read your Bible, please.....
Psalm 118:8-9
New International Version (NIV)
8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in humans.
9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in princes.
Romans 8:27
New International Version (NIV)
27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
[Unbelief is actually perverted faith, for it puts its trust, not in the living God but in dying men. The unbeliever denies the selfsufficiency of God and usurps attributes that are not his. This dual sin dishonors God and ultimately destroys the soul of man.]
I do respect his views well...
Romans 8:34
New International Version (NIV)
34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
As a Catholic I agree....
[Na sa 'yo na po yan Joycie, kung kanino mo gustong ilaan ang iyong dasal... pero when it comes to the salvation of our souls ( being sinners ) only Jesus Christ can intercede for us. And no one else. Read your Bible, please...]
I do agree... but how about these verses?
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.
1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.
Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.
Also these verses?
Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.
Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.
Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.
Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.
Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
The thing is Catholic Faith for some is simple. It's not. For some Bible is sole authority; it's not.
The veneration to Mary is rooted in the Holy Traditions of the Holy Church. Intercessory prayer is rooted in the Bible.
We Catholics believe that Mary intercede for us, she pray for us too!
If there is ONLY one mediator then....in Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Did Saint Paul is so ignorant about it? I think not....
In 1 Thess. 5:17 Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?
All credit is to God alone.... Saints could not do anything extra mile....but pray to God's throne....Although Saint's lives could be our model in life. Here starts what we call veneration to the Saints.
1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.
also this one....
2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.
About Mary's unique role we Catholics meditate on these verses....I hope you can check this out...
Gen. 3:15
- we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.
Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1
- the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.
John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.
Now about our Prayers to God, Mary magnify it....
Luke 1:44 -
Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.
Luke 1:46
- Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.
Luke 1:48
- Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?
Gal. 4:4
- God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
Archie said:
{{{Mary's prayer and Saint's prayer are all directed to God. }}}
But look at your people, their faith is directed TO Mary and the Saints... not TO God...
If their faith is directed TO God then they should pray TO God for their salvation.... they should address their prayers TO God... not address their prayers TO Mary and the Saints and then they in turn address the prayers TO God....
You see Archie, the channel to which our prayers go through is very important... because our faith is at stake here...
Our God can handle all our prayers --- if we direct our prayers TO other channels, then we make God to be unworthy of our prayers...
YOU CAN PRAY DIRECTLY TO GOD Archie... that's the reason Jesus came to earth, to renew our friendship with Him....Jesus is God, why not pray directly to Him?
Yes we can direct our prayer to God. But the Bible also teaches us to pray to one another. I see no problem doing the two way.
So why not pray to God with the Saints in heaven?
Because the credit is taken away from the Almighty God...Jesus Christ.
We can pray to one another, there's no question with that.....
But for our salvation, we ought to pray ONLY to God....because Jesus Christ is the only one... the only one.... the only one concerned for our salvation...
If you ( let's say ) were in His place... and then you hear people praying a prayer with a phrase "pray for us sinners", and then you hear that the prayer is not addressed to you... how would you feel?
"Pray for us sinners"
I feel that the person whom I asked to pray for me is just seeing God face to face!
In our prayer it is just asking Mary to pray for us NOT "have mercy on us" or "Save us in peril" God still is the Supreme being who could save us....
[But for our salvation, we ought to pray ONLY to God....because Jesus Christ is the only one... the only one.... the only one concerned for our salvation...]
True, God alone could save us.... But how could you explain intercession prayers in the Bible? God never forbids it.
How about this verse?
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29
- the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
As I checked... I have no copy of any prayers to the Saints that the Saints omits glory to God.
So if I asked you to pray for me, is that bad? Am I asking you to do a miracle for me? No. I am just asking you to repeat to God my prayers (that if you are in state of Grace).
NOTE: Paul never mind putting verses anymore.... I will post some more if he answers.
No comments:
Post a Comment