Part 2: Discourse with a Protestant who forgot his Bible verses
Archie...
You can pray directly to God anytime... and Jesus Christ is always interceding for you...
You said that the prayer of the saints in heaven have powerful effects, are you sure that they still have time to listen to our prayers? Only Jesus Christ is concerned with our affairs here on earth... Those in heaven are concerned with praising God and worshiping His name..
The saints (God's people) are requested to pray for one another WHILE they are still here on EARTH... not when they are in heaven... it is Jesus Christ's role to hear prayers and to pray for those who are here on earth...
And then you are asking those in heaven to repeat your prayers to God??? God heard you already... my goodness Archie... the saints in heaven will repeat your prayers to God????
oh c'mon....So even in heaven you want repetitive prayers???
God hears you Archie... there's no need for others to REPEAT your prayers to Him... We are to pray to one another while we are still here on earth...God never forbids intercessions, prayers, petitions, requests...but to address your prayers to your so-called Saints is forbidden because you give them CREDIT which is actually due to God, Jesus Christ...after all He's done for us, Archie, are you still saying that the credit should go to others?...
And what's wrong in repetitions? What is wrong if they did repeat my prayers?
You said intercessory prayer is not prohibited, but why can't they intercede in my behalf, they live and die as a faithful child of God. I would rather ask them to pray for me before the throne of God!
Psalm 146:3-4
New International Version (NIV)
3 Do not put your trust in princes,
in human beings, who cannot save.
4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
on that very day their plans come to nothing.
Now, that is quite clear right? DO NOT PUT YOUR TRUST IN HUMAN BEINGS...
Jesus Christ may have been human... but He is GOD, too... He is not just human, He is God... The human beings referred to in this verse will never equal God and the role of God they cannot perform... because they are God's creation... they are not God...when you pray to them you are taking away the credit which is due to God alone...and this brings anger to God because He deserves respect above all else...
The verse that you gave regarding the prayer of the saints in Rev. 5: 8 was never clear as to the nature of their prayers but only that they are directed to bring praise and honor to God.....Revelation 5:8-13
Revelation 5:8-13
New International Version (NIV)
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
You see? The prayer of the saints are solely directed to God... You do not see them praying for the people here on earth......
Thank you for the verses you posted.
[The verse that you gave regarding the prayer of the saints in Rev. 5: 8 was never clear as to the nature of their prayers but only that they are directed to bring praise and honor to God.....Revelation 5:8-13]
Was never clear? Bring praise and honor? In what verse?
[You see? The prayer of the saints are solely directed to God... You do not see them praying for the people here on earth......]
did you said "THE PRAYER OF THE SAINTS ARE SOLELY DIRECTED TO GOD"? Are you sure it did not came from people on earth?
You did not read the previous post Archie....
Read Revelation 5: 8-13... The saints there are God's people whether in heaven or on earth, we have an obligation to give praise and honor to God....
i do suggest you used this verse....the verse you gave do nothing about incense....
Revelations 8:4
"Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel."
The verse you gave to attempt to nullify the Catholic Faith does not hold any water at all. Rather support my claim.
1. Prayers from the Saints rose to God.
2. It was collected by Angels.
[Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”]
Do not have any connection to the incense at all. ONLY it did provide justification that there is a heavenly being.... prayer of the Saints are received by Angels.
The prayers of the saints bring glory and honor to God... because it goes straight to God...
How come it has to pass through saints??? The smoke of the incense rose before God... together with the prayers of the saints.... The prayers are not received by angels, they were prayed when the smoke of the incense is rising..... Please understand what you're reading Archie....
Do you doubt yourself when you pray? No? Then how come you need to address your prayers to saints... and not to Jesus Christ?
[The prayers of the saints bring glory and honor to God... because it goes straight to God...
How come it has to pass through saints???]
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23
we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.
[The prayers are not received by angels, they were prayed when the smoke of the incense is rising..... Please understand what you're reading Archie....]
Oh, Im sorry...anyway......still smoke rises and what do angels do?
[Do you doubt yourself when you pray? No? Then how come you need to address your prayers to saints... and not to Jesus Christ?]
No. It rather strengthen my love to God...since my prayer rose in heaven.....
Oh did I said "my prayer....?"
In 1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 , we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:
Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."
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