Part 3: Discourse with a Protestant who forgot his Bible verses
Archie,
You are right about saints being in heaven and on earth.... because God's people are saints... not only those canonized by the Roman Catholic church, but all those who believe in God are called saints....This topic has been one of the more heatedly discussed in this DB some time ago... I don't know why the topic was "mysteriously" taken off the discussion board... perhaps someone doesn't want others to know that saints are not only those canonized by the Roman Catholic church... the topic just disappeared when the discussion was centered on Ephesians 6: 18....Mysterious huh?
But the prayers referred to which rises with the smoke of the incense are prayers of adoration.... they are prayers of thanksgiving... they are prayers of praise and worship.... and they are prayed by the saints which are in heaven and on earth....
And then you're saying that when you pray to the saints that it strengthens your love to God--- by what? By making the saints take the role of Jesus Christ in hearing our prayers? Jesus Christ is always interceding for us... that is his role, not the saints' or Mary's.....
Hebrews 7:25
New International Version (NIV)
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
And then you're asking what do angels do?? They're worshiping God, too.... that's what they do, they render service to God by obeying his commands
[You are right about saints being in heaven and on earth.... because God's people are saints... not only those canonized by the Roman Catholic church, but all those who believe in God are called saints...]
Canonization of the Saints, were termed used to Saints who we Catholics believe reached heaven. Off course there are more un-heard names of people who might lived Saintly lives. They are just to confirm to the faithful to the whole Universal Church that this person is worthy of veneration....meaning worthy to study his/her life....imitate how he/she prays or how these Saints lived.
[And then you're saying that when you pray to the saints that it strengthens your love to God--- by what? By making the saints take the role of Jesus Christ in hearing our prayers? Jesus Christ is always interceding for us... that is his role, not the saints' or Mary's.....]
Well, the Saints for us Catholics are the living proof that God loves His children. How? When Catholics starts to study their life they see that those Saints live by the teachings of Jesus Christ. Especially when Paul said in Phil. 3:17 says to imitate him and others.
Yes, it is true Jesus intercede for us...but the Bible also taught us to mediate for other and even Jesus tells us about it.
In Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate
And in Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3).
Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
Now About Mary....
In John 2:5 Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
[But the prayers referred to which rises with the smoke of the incense are prayers of adoration.... they are prayers of thanksgiving... they are prayers of praise and worship.... and they are prayed by the saints which are in heaven and on earth..]
True, praise and worship....it also true that they are prayers of Saints in heaven and on earth....Remember Paul urges us to Pray one another? and within those prayers are thanks giving coming from people who intercede for them....
Like when you pray for your parents....and within your prayer you know what these folks prayed to God for their petition.... and again together with them you would pray their petition to God....and in the end of your prayer or before your prayer starts words of adoration comes first...In a Catholic who had personal relationship with Jesus Christ....we make sure to pray for others....and we ask Saints in heaven to pray for them in front of the throne of God.
[And then you're asking what do angels do?? They're worshiping God, too.... that's what they do, they render service to God by obeying his commands]
Yes it is true....Also Remember that it responds to St. Peter too...in Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
In addition to that this verse Heb. 1:14 – “Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?” This verse clearly indicates that God created the angels to help us achieve salvation.
If you have time see Tobit 3:17 Angel Raphael was sent to heal them both: to remove the cataracts from Tobit's eyes, so that he might again see God's sunlight; and to marry Raguel's daughter Sarah to Tobit's son Tobiah, and then drive the wicked demon Asmodeus from her.”
Well I know that we had a different Bible.... we still use Septuagint Bible.
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