Part 4: Protestant who forgot his Bible verse....
The undeniable truth is, we Catholics had a wonderful and colorful Church history, and with it the Bible. The only problem sometimes is that we forget who and what the real Church look like.
We sometimes let Protestants jumble our Tradition. In which we taught we had committed the gravest sin in the world...
Here is another discussion with Paul, a Protestant. Look a his ever changing statements. This mean that he is an average Protestant. Paul and his kind wish to grab all things that is tasteful and useful for their own accord.
Archie,
You are right about saints being in heaven and on earth.... because God's people are saints... not only those canonized by the Roman Catholic church, but all those who believe in God are called saints....This topic has been one of the more heatedly discussed in this DB some time ago... I don't know why the topic was "mysteriously" taken off the discussion board... perhaps someone doesn't want others to know that saints are not only those canonized by the Roman Catholic church... the topic just disappeared when the discussion was centered on Ephesians 6: 18....Mysterious huh?
But the prayers referred to which rises with the smoke of the incense are prayers of adoration.... they are prayers of thanksgiving... they are prayers of praise and worship.... and they are prayed by the saints which are in heaven and on earth....
And then you're saying that when you pray to the saints that it strengthens your love to God--- by what? By making the saints take the role of Jesus Christ in hearing our prayers? Jesus Christ is always interceding for us... that is his role, not the saints' or Mary's.....
Hebrews 7:25
New International Version (NIV)
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
And then you're asking what do angels do?? They're worshiping God, too.... that's what they do, they render service to God by obeying his commands
[You are right about saints being in heaven and on earth.... because God's people are saints... not only those canonized by the Roman Catholic church, but all those who believe in God are called saints...]
Canonization of the Saints, were termed used to Saints who we Catholics believe reached heaven. Off course there are more un-heard names of people who might lived Saintly lives. They are just to confirm to the faithful to the whole Universal Church that this person is worthy of veneration....meaning worthy to study his/her life....imitate how he/she prays or how these Saints lived.
[And then you're saying that when you pray to the saints that it strengthens your love to God--- by what? By making the saints take the role of Jesus Christ in hearing our prayers? Jesus Christ is always interceding for us... that is his role, not the saints' or Mary's.....]
Well, the Saints for us Catholics are the living proof that God loves His children. How? When Catholics starts to study their life they see that those Saints live by the teachings of Jesus Christ. Especially when Paul said in Phil. 3:17 says to imitate him and others.
Yes, it is true Jesus intercede for us...but the Bible also taught us to mediate for other and even Jesus tells us about it.
In Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate
And in Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3).
Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
Now About Mary....
In John 2:5 Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
[But the prayers referred to which rises with the smoke of the incense are prayers of adoration.... they are prayers of thanksgiving... they are prayers of praise and worship.... and they are prayed by the saints which are in heaven and on earth..]
True, praise and worship....it also true that they are prayers of Saints in heaven and on earth....Remember Paul urges us to Pray one another? and within those prayers are thanks giving coming from people who intercede for them....
Like when you pray for your parents....and within your prayer you know what these folks prayed to God for their petition.... and again together with them you would pray their petition to God....and in the end of your prayer or before your prayer starts words of adoration comes first...In a Catholic who had personal relationship with Jesus Christ....we make sure to pray for others....and we ask Saints in heaven to pray for them in front of the throne of God.
[And then you're asking what do angels do?? They're worshiping God, too.... that's what they do, they render service to God by obeying his commands]
Yes it is true....Also Remember that it responds to St. Peter too...in Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
In addition to that this verse Heb. 1:14 – “Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?” This verse clearly indicates that God created the angels to help us achieve salvation.
If you have time see Tobit 3:17 Angel Raphael was sent to heal them both: to remove the cataracts from Tobit's eyes, so that he might again see God's sunlight; and to marry Raguel's daughter Sarah to Tobit's son Tobiah, and then drive the wicked demon Asmodeus from her.”
Well I know that we had a different Bible.... we still use Septuagint Bible.
Archie,
God responds to the prayers and then command his angels..... why are you saying that angels responded to the prayer of Peter????
The angels responded to the commands of God....
God should take the credit to Peter's prayer being answered... not the angel... hello???
In John 2: 5, Mary told the servants to obey Jesus... why is it that you are giving so much credit to Mary when it was Jesus who was actually helping us out????
And what intercession did Mary do in this incident??? Did the servants request of Mary to ask from Jesus the wine that they needed????
No..... because Mary merely commented that there was no more wine.... you are making such a big deal with this incident simply because it was Mary who made the comment...Jesus knows when to do his miracles, He does not need others to point them out to Him... He knows His own agenda.... He has a time frame of when, how, why, where....
[God responds to the prayers and then command his angels..... why are you saying that angels responded to the prayer of Peter????
The angels responded to the commands of God....
God should take the credit to Peter's prayer being answered... not the angel... hello???]
True, and unfortunately you did not get it right. It only shows that Angels do something else rather than praising and worshiping God. That is all then verse shows. It elaborately described that Saints do not take away honors that were due to God...Simply Protestants loose its way on it.
[In John 2: 5, Mary told the servants to obey Jesus... why is it that you are giving so much credit to Mary when it was Jesus who was actually helping us out????]
Hello? Are you a Disciple of Jesus? You commend the Father and Jesus.....BUT you hate the mother of Christ! Sorry not hate.....but rather dishonored in a way....
It is God who responds....... don't you get it?
Angels merely obey God...that's what angels are doing.... obeying. They are not receiving our prayers and then offering it to God....( and by the way Archie, are you praying to angels ,too?)
The dishonor that you are saying Archie is intended to the people's worship of Mary.
I'm not saying that Mary is not the mother of Jesus Christ....
I'm not saying that Mary is not blessed....
I'm not saying that Mary does not deserve honor....
I'm not saying that Mary is not worthy of respect....
What I'm saying is that the credit that is due to Christ should not be given to anyone else....because you are giving credit to Mary which is due to God alone, that's why I may appear like I don't respect Mary... but as a matter of fact I do... I respect what Mary did... she is blessed because she obeyed God's command....
But to pray to her? What can she do with my prayers? What can she do for my salvation?
Isaiah 48:11
New International Version (NIV)
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another.
God deserves our reverence because he is our mediator --- 1 Tim. 2: 5
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
God deserves our reverence because he is our intercessor --- Heb. 7: 25
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
God deserves our reverence because he gave sooooooooo much just to glorify his name... to sanctify his name apart from any other name --- Acts 4: 12
Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
http://www.gmanews.tv/story/219228/nation/quiapo-church-to-show-pope-john-paul-ii39s-relic-to-public
Just so you would know where the people's faith is nowadays, Archie...
Kissing relics... can you imagine people's faith being corrupted by this relics?
Do you understand what I'm driving at Archie?
People simply believe what they can see... their faith is weak when there are no materials, relics, objects, tools, idols, rosary, pictures, etc.... which would represent God...
Reflect on it Archie.... Jesus Christ is the answer Archie...
I do understand you....but Faith is SUBJECTIVE!!!! It is not universal declaration of one's faith.... For example....we venerate the Bible BUT we DO NOT BELIEVE that GOD mean every word it had....we though had a face to face value of it....but not as Literal as Protestants want it to be.
Kissing relics are expressions of one's faith. I do venerate relics...especially the relic of the true cross...But that is only a relic....I could kiss it....but I can't worship it...However I could worship the owner of the cross...
Reflect on every verse...we Catholics hold on....not only John 3:16....Jesus is the true way Paul....and Yes we live according to early Christians traditions....
FYI... When you say idolatry....it means you take a non-living thing as God... We don't.
Bowing is a gesture of giving honor...we Catholics give honor to whom is due honor...
Rather reflect on these verses....
Deut. 5:9 - God's command, "you shall not bow down to them" means "do not worship them." But not all bowing is worship. Here God's command is connected to false worship.
Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.
Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.
Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.
1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.
2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.
1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.
1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.
2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.
Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.
Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.
Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.
Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.
Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.
1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.
2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 - Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.
Our Rosary.....imagery....or statues do not represent God... However, we believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.
Imagery is again en expression of Art, and a imagery tool for learning. We use all senses to feel God's prints...example depicting beautiful flowers....it represents God's beauty but not God....
The BIBLE represent the fullness of Faith we Catholics have....
The Rosary are prayers taken from the Bible.... It speaks of a woman of full of Grace....filled by God.
Again it is not worshiping Mary....Only missed informed Protestants wants us to say words we did not say....
If I may....if you found these verses in your Bible you can blot this out..
Lk 1:28
Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.
Lk 1:42
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
I think the ONLY issue in the Roman Catholic Church today....are no longer about the issue you wish to raise....BUT some serious issues. Doctrinally we conform the Christian Traditions at all times...
How about Bible worship? You believe that the Bible is at literal as it is....How about Protestants using Masoteric Text conformed by Luther...
Protestants do not have hard theology background....they only sing and pray longer as Pharisee's did.
Addendum
Protestants do not have true Christian History to begin with....
Those are the bitter truth....But Catholics around the word does not mind them either. We believe that Protestants and Catholics do find common ground.
There are Protestants who found themselves Catholic!
Archie,
The verses you posted above as regard to bowing, did not show that they were bowing to graven images like your graven idols...
When you kiss relics it simply goes to show that you give value to those relics. Remember that God is Spirit, Archie .... remember that....
You cannot and will not place a graven images of a certain saint upside down, can you?...
Do you know why?
Because you give it value... you give it sense...you give it worth... that is worship Archie... worship does not altogether mean that you bow down to it... simply that you give it worth... and please do not tell me that they are just 'tools', if they are just "tools", how come you offer food to them during certain occasions? That is why I'm telling you to give the credit where it's due Archie.... Jesus Christ mentioned none of it during his short stay here... did he command us to have graven images for "tools"? Look where your faith is directed.... if it really is directed to God, then you don't need images... just set your heart on the thought that God is there with you, seeing your every move...
And by the way, we do not interpret the Bible verses literally Archie... that's just your opinion....
Mary is blessed Archie, there's no question about that... and I believe she already got her reward in heaven...but look at the kind of worth you're giving her... too much adoration already.... only Jesus deserves that kind of adoration... and no one else.
[Because you give it value... you give it sense...you give it worth... that is worship Archie... worship does not altogether mean that you bow down to it... simply that you give it worth]
WRONG!!!! If does mean you worship your Bible? You show meaning to it right?
[Jesus Christ mentioned none of it during his short stay here... did he command us to have graven images for "tools"? Look where your faith is directed.]
Did he say NO to it? How about the Ark of the Covenant? It had images and placed at the Holy of Holies?
[if it really is directed to God, then you don't need images... just set your heart on the thought that God is there with you, seeing your every move...]
All Catholics know that.... But that is not OUR point.... Protestants need art....that's it.... too dry....poor theology
[And by the way, we do not interpret the Bible verses literally Archie... that's just your opinion....]
Ow....really...so John 3:16 does not mean Faith alone could save us?
[Mary is blessed Archie, there's no question about that... and I believe she already got her reward in heaven...but look at the kind of worth you're giving her... too much adoration already.... only Jesus deserves that kind of adoration... and no one else.]
We do not adore her....we venerate her....define to me adoration to Protestant view point...????
Addendum
[Mary is blessed Archie, there's no question about that... and I believe she already got her reward in heaven]
if she is in heaven and you believe she is blessed....why can't you type "Blessed Mary"? And if is in heaven why can't you believe in communion of the Saints?
Wow...a Protestant turning Catholic? Just imagine.....he believe our Mother Mary is in heaven and yet could not imitate her...how come?
Protestant believing in Assumption!!!! Few more steps.....
{{{WRONG!!!! If does mean you worship your Bible? You show meaning to it right?}}}
We give worth to the words written in the Bible, that's why we read it everyday... we bring our Bible to church, too... we do not literally bow down to the Bible, like what you're doing with your graven images... we use it as our guide in living the kind of life Jesus wants us to live.
[We give worth to the words written in the Bible, that's why we read it everyday... we bring our Bible to church, too... we do not literally bow down to the Bible, like what you're doing with your graven images... we use it as our guide in living the kind of life Jesus wants us to live.]
Yeah right...not bowing to a book....but can't be a Christian without the Bible's point of view... The Bible tells Protestant what to do....Oh....Did your church taught that the Bible is Authoritative regarding to your salvation? How is that?
Protestant used the Bible as a work book out line? huh?
[we use it as our guide in living the kind of life Jesus wants us to live.]
Ohhh....Where did Jesus said "Read the 66 books!!!! for your salvation?"
Jesus said Proclaim the Good news!!!! not Print and let be read by all....print with NIV on it....
We cannot proclaim unless we read it first. You see Archie, learning about salvation has to begin with the individual's need for it. We do not just learn something as essential simply because our parents handed it down to us... not all of the time...
Zechariah 7:11-12
11 “But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and covered their ears. 12 They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
You know what Archie, I am proclaiming the Good News to others...house to house.... no donations... no debates.... not recommending the church... just proclaiming the message of Christ... the Good News...we learn about Jesus Christ because of what we read in the Bible...are you saying that you are getting some points of view from other gospel? C'mon Archie...
[You know what Archie, I am proclaiming the Good News to others...house to house.... no donations... no debates.... not recommending the church... just proclaiming the message of Christ... the Good News...we learn about Jesus Christ because of what we read in the Bible...are you saying that you are getting some points of view from other gospel? C'mon Archie...]
C'mon Paul.....now you JUST proclaim the message....Another Protestant hitch... I did not say I got new gospels...not like Protestants liking our Bible.
I asked you where in the Bible: Does Jesus said read the Bible? Does Salvation relies on Scripture alone?
Protestants MUST meet the metal tightly especially when it grinds them whole...
Another Protestant big mistake....I strongly advice you never used this verse to us....
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Hmmmm....sound convincing? Let me dissect it....
2 Tim. 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible is the sole authority of God's word. But examining these texts disproves their claim. Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before the Protestants... Paul totally ignore it....typical Protestant....
> Equipped or Profitable does not mean mandatory....
Paul...meditate on this....
2 Tim. 3:16 - further, the verse "all Scripture" uses the words "pasa graphe" which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous Protestant reading of "pasa graphe" would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use "sola Matthew," or "sola Mark," but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God's word. This, of course, is not true and even Protestants would agree. Also, "pasa graphe" cannot mean "all of Scripture" because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless Protestants argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.
Addendum....
2 Tim. 3:16 -
also, these inspired Old Testament Scriptures Paul is referring to included the deuterocanonical books which the Protestants removed from the Bible 1,500 years later.
2 Tim. 3:17 -
Paul's reference to the "man of God" who may be complete refers to a clergyman, not a layman.
It is an instruction to a bishop of the Church. So, although Protestants use it to prove their case, the passage is not even relevant to most of the faithful.
PAUL!!! don't forget this verse.....
Phil. 4:9
- Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. There is nothing ever about obeying Scripture alone.
and this one....
1 Thess. 2:13 –
Paul says, “when you received the word of God, which you heard from us..” How can the Bible be teaching first century Christians that only the Bible is their infallible source of teaching if, at the same time, oral revelation was being given to them as well?
Protestants can’t claim that there is one authority (Bible) while allowing two sources of authority (Bible and oral revelation).
Re: Salvation
[We cannot proclaim unless we read it first. You see Archie, learning about salvation has to begin with the individual's need for it. We do not just learn something as essential simply because our parents handed it down to us... not all of the time...]
hmmmm.......so humbling.....but still Protestant fallacy lurks... So you can not proclaim the Good News without reading it.... it seems that you Protestants can not proclaim without reading the Bible right?
So did Jesus taught you..like this..."Read your Bible for you to proclaim the Good News!!!!" Jesus read the OT.... but He does not used OT as His source of Authority not like Protestant who can't do anything without their 66 Books of the Bible.
[You see Archie, learning about salvation has to begin with the individual's need for it]
All individual need it. You can not say "to individuals needing it...it is not a "Learning process where you are saved ones you read your Bible..." Did Jesus told the other thief.... you must know salvation first?
Paul all need it....
Paul....this verse speaks for it self..
Zechariah 7:11-12
11 “But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and covered their ears. 12 They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not LISTEN to the law or to the WORDS that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.
It furthers destroys the Bible alone belief.... read it as loud as you can... Thank you for posting it....
Plus....see verse 12.... Prophets can preach through the Holy Spirit....not because the MUST read it first not like your so called pastors.
Archie asks:
{{{I asked you where in the Bible: Does Jesus said read the Bible? Does Salvation relies on Scripture alone?}}}
People learned of the Good News from Jesus Christ... now, Jesus Christ's teachings were recorded in the Bible... that's why I read the Bible...
I was not there when Jesus taught... I was not there when he made his comments... I heard or learned about the message of Jesus Christ when I started reading the recorded accounts of him in the Bible... of course you know this Archie, because you are also reading the Bible, right?
Unless of course, when what was preached to you was not in the Bible....
If what you have believed is written in the Bible, then why is it that you question the authority of the Bible as the written word of God?
You know why? Because of early traditions handed down from our elders.
People find it hard to just let go of old practices... that's why Christ's message was hard to understand because people are trying to place new wine into old wineskin.
When Jesus Christ told us to love our enemies, we obey right?
Right Archie? Do you love your enemies? If yes, then you are obeying God.
Where did we learn about loving our enemies, Archie? In the Bible, right? We have read it from the Bible.
[People learned of the Good News from Jesus Christ... now, Jesus Christ's teachings were recorded in the Bible... that's why I read the Bible...]
People learned of the Good news from Jesus? Are you really Christian? Jesus is the Good News.... NOT ALL are recorded in NT Paul....
Open your Bible and see:
John 20:30; 21:25
- Jesus did many other things not written in the Scriptures. These have been preserved through the oral apostolic tradition and they are equally a part of the Deposit of Faith.
[I was not there when Jesus taught... I was not there when he made his comments... I heard or learned about the message of Jesus Christ when I started reading the recorded accounts of him in the Bible... of course you know this Archie, because you are also reading the Bible, right?]
Again Protestant Fallacy....
[If what you have believed is written in the Bible, then why is it that you question the authority of the Bible as the written word of God?]
I believe in the Bible, but I do not believe that the Bible had Authority alone.... May I asked who Authorized the Bible?
Luke 1:3
3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
Archie, some words in the Bible may not have been written TO us, but they were written FOR us... don't you understand?
Is there written anything wrong in the Bible?
The phrase -- " pray for us sinners" --- is not found in the Bible, but you have included it in your prayers...
That simple phrase change the whole meaning of how we look at Mary... venerate you say? I don't think so....
I once saw an old woman kneeling in front of a statue of Mary....
Not worshiping? I don't think so...
Addendum
[You know why? Because of early traditions handed down from our elders.]
hmmm traditions? Is that Oral not written in the Bible? How come you protestant believe in Authority of the Bible and yet claiming you had traditions...You do not have elders to come with...you are protestant...maybe you can claim Luther as your elder.
[People find it hard to just let go of old practices... that's why Christ's message was hard to understand because people are trying to place new wine into old wineskin.]
Irrelevant....
{{{hmmm traditions? Is that Oral not written in the Bible? How come you protestant believe in Authority of the Bible and yet claiming you had traditions...You do not have elders to come with...you are protestant...maybe you can claim Luther as your elder.}}}
I was talking about EARLY traditions... not literally OUR OWN traditions.... early traditions of people...
[I was talking about EARLY traditions... not literally OUR OWN traditions.... early traditions of people... ]
You do not have EARLY traditions...because if you do you are a Catholic. The truth is you are a Protestant.
Show me your traditions....
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