POPE BENEDICT XVI
Archie asks:
{{{So Paul....does the Bible whom you recognize that had sole authority contains the absolute truth?}}}
The Bible contains the recorded account of the message that we need to follow in order to live the kind of life that God wanted us to live.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not the teachings that we should follow...
[The Bible contains the recorded account of the message that we need to follow in order to live the kind of life that God wanted us to live.]
Paul, you are not answering my question...Does the Bible HAD THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH?
Wrong...Paul.... Catechism is not a rule book.....It's described and explain our faith.
I asked you once again:
Does the Bible whom you recognize that had authority CONTAINS ABSOLUTE TRUTH?
2Tim 3:16 says, “All scripture is... profitable for teaching....” True.
Reversing the statement with the word “alone”, however, makes the statement false. “All that is profitable for teaching is found in the scripture alone.”
Ex. Peter witnessed the transfiguration of Christ. - Correct.
The transfiguration of Christ was witnessed by Peter “alone”. - Incorrect. (James and John were also present.)
The Catholic Church teaches Sacred Tradition (2 Thess 2:15, 3:6, 2 Tim. 2:2) and Sacred Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16–17) make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God." (Dei Verbum, 1965) See Also, John 21:25.
Interpreting the Scripture without one Magisterium or teaching authority may be subject to different and wrong interpretations. That is why the church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) with Peter and the apostles as the appointed teaching authority of God. (Matt 16:19, Gal 2:9)
Peter and the apostles were commanded to preach the Gospel. (Mark 3:14, Luke 9:16, Luke 10:16)
In order that the Gospel and Truth might always be preserved, the disciples left bishops as their successors (Phil 1:1, 1Tim 3:2, Titus 1:7, 1 Pet 2:25) so the Gospel will be preached (correctly) to the ends of the world (Rev 14:6) until the end of time (Matt 24:14).
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Dr. David Anders is a Protestant pastor who converted to Catholicism.
Here are some of his statements.
“After college, I earned a doctorate in Church history so I could flesh out the story and prove to all the poor Catholics that they were in the wrong Church.”
“Calvin shocked me by rejecting key elements of my Evangelical tradition. Born-again spirituality, private interpretation of Scripture, a broad-minded approach to denominations – Calvin opposed them all. I discovered that his concerns were vastly different, more institutional, even more Catholic.”
“Why should Calvin treat these “Catholic things” with such seriousness? Was he right in thinking them so important? And if so, was he justified in leaving the Catholic Church?”
To read complete article, http://thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/2010/06/conversion-story-of-dr-david-anders-and.html
I conform Bonnie
Thanks, Archie :) Hopefully, we can keep the peace
I am praying for that...
Archie asks:
{{{Paul, you are not answering my question...Does the Bible HAD THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH?}}}
This is my answer Archie--- Jesus Christ IS the absolute truth, and I get to learn more about Him when I read the Bible.
If you are reading the Bible Archie ( really reading the Bible ) please do so wholeheartedly... one is advised not to take halfheartedly what's written in the Bible... it's never proper to read some parts of the Bible and ignoring some other parts.
Revelation 3:16
16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
And by the way Bonnie... exchanging opinions per se does not alter peace, exchanging foul comments does... I respect Archie and Archie respects me, we have kept the peace for so long now, thank you very much...
By the way Dr. David Anders is Baptist... I'm not Baptist...thank you very much...
-----Although Calvin rejected the authority of Rome, there were things about the Catholic faith he never thought about leaving.-----
This was Calvin's dilemma... lukewarmness... Revelation 3: 16...
Luke 5:37
37 And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the skins; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined.
The strong hold of Calvin's old practices manifested themselves in his new understanding of Christ's message... that shouldn't have been the case...
Romans 12:2
2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the RENEWING of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Hebrews 8:13
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
When Jesus Christ came to earth, He made clear all misunderstood issues... the Pharisees thought their practices pleases God, but Jesus Christ rebuked them on most points... Peter and the disciples were rebuked and corrected... even Mary was rebuked... you know why? Because their presuppositions hindered them from seeing or realizing God's message...
If a person really want God to take over, he should let God teach him. Not the other way around... that is why it is very important to be dependent on God and not on any other teachings... and where do we get to learn about God's teaching? In the Bible...
If a person's interpretations are not right, then God will rebuke him or her. He or she should always ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Because the credit does not fall on a person's capability to interpret what he/she reads, the credit falls on God alone... Jesus Christ made himself very clear with that fact.
Hebrews 5:4
4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
I cannot bear that people would take the words in the Bible as something man-made when they are God-inspired...
Paul,
I do read the Bible wholeheartedly....true a totality of the scripture must be always in mind. That is the reason I never used Masoteric text or Masoteric Scripture Canon. (e.g NIV, NASB, ESV etc...) I used only two verses NRSV-CE / RSV-CE or NAB.
You still did not answer it, Paul.
In your answer you said Jesus is the absolute truth....Yes I do conform and you kept reading the Bible, to learn more about him....nice to hear that.
BUT since you said Jesus is the absolute truth, I do not believe that the Bible alone handles all about Jesus....
What about these verses?
"Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. 31But these are written so that you may come to believe* that Jesus is the Messiah,* the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name". - John 20:30-31
And you said....to learn more about Jesus you need to read the Bible right? But Absolute truth about Jesus does not written down in the Bible...If it did then why does this verse exist....John 21:25
"But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. " John 21:25
So where else?
If my answer did not satisfy you Archie, that does not mean that I did not answer... Jesus Christ even answered in parables... because He knew who would understand His reply.
Jesus Christ did many other things not written in this BOOK. Did you notice that word Archie... in THIS BOOK--- that is the Book of John--- because John knew that the other disciples recorded other incidents too... that was why John wrote--- Not written in this book...
Get it?
Now, let me ask you this Archie... how many blind men did Jesus Christ heal?
Not all of those accounts needed to be written down, because they were so many, and still the message is one and the same--- Jesus Christ restores sight to blind people---
Get it?
Let's say.....in April--- 47 blind men got their sight back
.....in May--- 8 blind men got their sight back
.....in June--- 21 blind men got their sight back
... and the list could go on and on.... and we are just talking about blind men Archie...
Let's say....in January--- 4 lepers were healed
....in February--- 3 lepers were healed
...in March------ 10 lepers were healed
...and the list could go on and on... and we are just talking about lepers Archie...
Are you saying then that all that Jesus Christ did should be recorded and written down so as to have proof that He is a miracle worker?
One blind man receiving his sight back is enough to convince me that Jesus Christ is my only hope.... One leper healed is enough to convince me that Jesus Christ is my healer... One penitent thief saved is enough to convince me that Jesus Christ alone saves sinners... Do you understand now, Archie?
If all of those miracles were written down, how then would people be able to carry their Bible to church? It's a pity that some people don't carry their Bible to church... it's not heavy, isn't it?
You said to learn more about Jesus which is the Absolute truth you must read the Bible and Yes...there are truth to that. The sad part is not all was contained.
[Are you saying then that all that Jesus Christ did should be recorded and written down so as to have proof that He is a miracle worker?]
nope....4 Gospel are enough...
[One blind man receiving his sight back is enough to convince me that Jesus Christ is my only hope.... One leper healed is enough to convince me that Jesus Christ is my healer... One penitent thief saved is enough to convince me that Jesus Christ alone saves sinners... Do you understand now, Archie?]
i do understand you....but still the truth about everything especially about the teaching of Christ is not founded ONLY in the Bible...Paul
[If all of those miracles were written down, how then would people be able to carry their Bible to church? It's a pity that some people don't carry their Bible to church... it's not heavy, isn't it?]
In the Catholic sense....we do not need to carry a Bible all the time. We had missals ready for each worship service.
I get your point...about John's Gospel...but the thing is still the foundation of truth does not found alone in the Bible....
Im sad you're the 55th Protestant i asked, including my cousin....still had different answer...
What I am trying to say is this.....The Bible is an excellent tool to know and learn the moral principle of Christ. To read the all four Gospels are great blessing.
But to make a book a center of Jesus Christ's teaching is absurd.
If that what it is....then who says last word? Everyone can read the Bible and know about Jesus....but who can say the truth on the things that people are reading?
Who can say this is the TRUE interpretation....Since the Bible had a Divine breath....who can display to all Christian the absolute truth?
{{{i do understand you....but still the truth about everything especially about the teaching of Christ is not founded ONLY in the Bible...Paul}}}
I understand why you're saying this Archie... I used to read other sources too because I wanted answers to some of my questions... but that longing of mine does not mean that the Bible does not offer all the answers.
You see, people look for answers... answers they WANT... but the Bible only gives people the answers they NEED... And the answers that we need are not necessarily the kind of answers we want...you see the difference now?
Deuteronomy 29:29
29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
There are secret things that only God can reveal.... but...
Jeremiah 29:13
13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Wholeheartedly Archie... give your heart to seeking God alone...
Because you have decided that the foundation of truth is not found in the Bible, do you think you are right? Because the foundation of truth is Jesus Christ....
Where did you first hear about Jesus Christ, Archie?
[You see, people look for answers... answers they WANT... but the Bible only gives people the answers they NEED... And the answers that we need are not necessarily the kind of answers we want...you see the difference now? ]
The difference i see is that Protestant teaching hold no water. You did still not answer the question....
[Wholeheartedly Archie... give your heart to seeking God alone...]
Yes I do. Protestant can't face when it comes to Authority.
[Because you have decided that the foundation of truth is not found in the Bible, do you think you are right? Because the foundation of truth is Jesus Christ....]
True it is not in the Bible.... Because the Bible said in 1 Timothy 3:15
"if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth...."
So if i had questions or If I wish to learn more about my Bible I will go to the Church...not based everything on my self interpretation...
[Where did you first hear about Jesus Christ, Archie?]
My Parent thought me....not a book.
It was the Church who had the pillar and bulwark of truth.....The very Bible you used came from the Church....
With this the ABSOLUTE TRUTH was exposed....not merely reading it....Christ never mention that the Good News opt to be read....IT MUST BE HEARD....
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. -Mark 13:31
heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus' Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.
Luke 10:16
"‘Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.’
He who hears you (not "who reads your writings"), hears me. The oral word passes from Jesus to the apostles to their successors by the gracious gifts of the Holy Spirit. This succession has been preserved in the Holy Catholic Church.
Paul...bear this in mind....
"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ." Romans 10:17
You can not learn more about Jesus or the Truth of Jesus in just merely reading Paul....Faith is not learned...It is a gift from God.
RE: Rom. 10:17
- faith comes by what is "heard" (not just read) which is the Word that is "preached" (not read). This word comes from the oral tradition of the apostles. Those in countries where the Scriptures are not available can still come to faith in Jesus Christ.
I guess your priests depend on ORAL traditions then... and when they are asked about something they do not consult the Bible I suppose... am I right?
[Where did you first hear about Jesus Christ, Archie?]
{{{My Parent thought me....not a book. }}}
Your parent taught you, when they in turn were taught by their parents and so forth and so on... so they never read the Bible then? They only depend on what was handed down to them...hmmm...
Mark 7:13
13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
Sometimes I really can't understand why people would believe others and not confirm what they hear in the Bible...
So you don't confirm or corroborate what was told you? Is this what you mean by-- IT MUST BE HEARD???
No need to confirm the recorded facts concerning the words spoken by God????
What if your priest read from a Latin book?? You would just believe him without even confirming what he told you??? Because he is the authority.. no need to question, right? Is that it Archie? Just believe what you hear from the priest???
{{{The difference i see is that Protestant teaching hold no water. You did still not answer the question....}}}
Hold no water?? That's just your opinion, Archie... I answered your question already... if you did not like my answer, that is still an answer...
This is what Archie posted:
{{{"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ." Romans 10:17
You can not learn more about Jesus or the Truth of Jesus in just merely reading Paul....Faith is not learned...It is a gift from God.}}}
The word of Christ is recorded in the Bible Archie....
It's funny when you are reading the Bible but then you do not believe what you read...
The message that Paul and the early church leaders preached is the teachings they learn from Jesus Christ and many other instructions inspired by the Holy Spirit... people get to read about those messages nowadays when they read the Bible... The Roman Catholic church Archie is not that reliable when it comes to their teachings because they do not follow most of the things written in the Bible... one of which is Mary being a Mediatrix... why would I believe a teaching about Mary being equal to the authority of Jesus Christ??
The faith of the people is at stake here Archie, and Jesus Christ did not tell us about any other human being who deserves the kind of respect which is for God alone...
[Your parent taught you, when they in turn were taught by their parents and so forth and so on... so they never read the Bible then? They only depend on what was handed down to them...hmmm...]
Paul...as what the Bible said....Faith was heard.....it was never been read.
[The word of Christ is recorded in the Bible Archie....]
So? and also in the Traditions of the Church...
[It's funny when you are reading the Bible but then you do not believe what you read...]
I believe the Bible as inspired....but not as literalist way as what Protestant do...
[The faith of the people is at stake here Archie, and Jesus Christ did not tell us about any other human being who deserves the kind of respect which is for God alone... ]
Your Faith is at stake.....we Catholics hope for it....do not claim as you were saved...
True Protestant hold no water at all..
Ohh yes you answered...BUT far reached...Anyway...what could I am waiting for an answer to a Protestant who hold no Authority at all.
{{{I believe the Bible as inspired....but not as literalist way as what Protestant do...}}}
No Archie... you are prejudiced with Protestants that's why...you believe the Bible as inspired and that's just it... Inspired... and then nothing more...
{{{Your Faith is at stake.....we Catholics hope for it....do not claim as you were saved...}}}
Romans 10:9
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Have you declared this already Archie?
{{{So? and also in the Traditions of the Church...}}}
Not all... Jesus Christ made many things new which people learned from the Old Testament, that's why He came.... to make some new practices because the old ones will be obsolete...
[Romans 10:9
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.]
Yes....but it does not mean absolute salvation....
[Not all... Jesus Christ made many things new which people learned from the Old Testament, that's why He came.... to make some new practices because the old ones will be obsolete...]
half true...but he never change Mosaic law He (Jesus Christ) he was the epitome of the Law!
Absolute salvation... absolute authority...
Turn to Jesus Christ..... He is...
{{{ half true...but he never change Mosaic law He (Jesus Christ) he was the epitome of the Law! }}}
It was God's law, by the way... not Moses'...
[It was God's law, by the way... not Moses'...]
That's it? only change name?
Paul said:
Absolute salvation... absolute authority...
But what about these verses?
What the Bible said:(plus commentary)
Rom. 5:2
- we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.
Yes, Paul, let’s keep the board healthy by respectful and intelligent discussions. Most of my relatives are Protestants, and I can see how much they love God. I once identified myself as a Protestant, but made a 180⁰ turn.
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These NT verses revealed some OT truths which were handed down by oral tradition. Not mentioned in the OT, but were written in the NT.
1 Cor 10:4 “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ.”
Jude 1:9 “Yet the archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil in a dispute over the body of Moses, did not venture to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him but said, ‘May the Lord rebuke you!’”
On top of the verses we have already pointed out regarding traditions, these two points to other truths (not for the purpose of reducing repetition) that were not written down, but were handed down by oral tradition.
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An example of wrong interpretation.
John 5:39 “You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them.”
Jesus said this, not to contradict the scriptures (although He seemed to be a sign of contradiction for the Jews) but to rebuke the Jews for their failure to see the truth when Truth was right in their midst. Even to this day, Jews don’t accept Jesus as their Messiah. Backed by scriptural verses in Ezekiel 37:26-28, Isaiah 43:5-6, Zechariah 14:9, Isaiah 2:4, they believe and proclaim that their Messiah has not come. When Jesus in John 9:16 healed the blind man on a Sabbath, the Pharisees were not only offended, but outright rejected Him because their promised Messiah will lead a full Torah observance; and anyone who does otherwise, is of false. Their confidence was based on what was written in Deut. 13:1-4.
Scripture in itself is the inerrant Word of God, errancy stems from “wrong interpretation.” That is why, the Church is the foundation of truth...repeatedly posted. Correct interpretation comes from the authority left by Christ - the Church through the apostles.
Our Catechism teaches us that
"The Magisterium is ‘not superior’ to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication, and expounds it faithfully.”
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Before His Ascension, Jesus confirmed Peter as the visible head and chief pastor over His universal church and instructed Peter to “to feed His lambs, tend His sheep, feed His sheep.” (John 21:15-17) As the leader of the flock, Jesus instructed Peter to tend (take care of the flock) and feed them with the Word of God. To this day, apostolic succession continues because of the promise God Himself made - that the Church will never apostatize.
NOTHING FOLLOWS
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